Luftwaffe insigna

[kerry]

I'm visiting my in-laws for Christmas and my Father- in- law showed me a piece of a German airplane from WW2.  My wife's grandpa was a B24 gunner and was stationed in England during the war.  A German airplane(don't know what type) was shot down near his base and he cut the marking out of the German aircraft.  Size is 13'' square so he could fit it in his pack to bring back home to the States.  My in-laws asked me what I thought its worth is.  I search online and came up empty and the thought occurred maybe some of you on mooneyspace might know.  

[carusoam]

Way to go Grandpa!  

Best regards,

-a-

[MB65E]

Frickin cool! It's priceless if you ask me. 

-Matt

[Niko182]

I would not sell that if I were you. That is a piece of History. A piece of first generation High tech Warbird (high tech for its time).

As MB65E said, Its priceless.

[Raptor05121]

Priceless.

I'd try and find out what aircraft itcame from. Most likely a frontline fighter, it should be easy to go to a museum and try and match the rivet line. 

[N201MKTurbo]

It may be the center of the swastica on a BF109 tail. I saw one that had a lap joint at the tail tip. And the rivet lines are correct.

 

Edited December 25, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[N201MKTurbo]

Apparently that was a popular souvenir.

[kerry]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It may be the center of the swastica on a BF109 tail. I saw one that had a lap joint at the tail tip. And the rivet lines are correct.

 

That totally makes sense now.  I kept looking at German airplanes online and couldn't find cross markings that small.  We just assumed my wife's Grandpa cut it down to 13'' to hide it in his pack but maybe it was done so not to offend others by displaying a swastika.

[MyNameIsNobody]

That (center of a Swaz on tail) is some good detective work.  Definitely worth money on EBay if listed under Luftwaffe and described with history.  I wouldn’t sell it personally.

[kerry]

I don't think my Father in-law is interested in selling.  We were curious of its value so I inquired mooneyspace.  After finding out it was a swastika I did find a forum on google with a topic of a similar marking with bullet holes and the forum mentioned a minimum value of $250.     

[Niko182]

Probably the longer you keep it, the more valueable itll become.

[kerry]

Just some perspective.  I have a friend who is 95 years old.  He started flying B17's at the age of 18 ww2.  At the end of the war his job was ferrying P38 Lightings from East coast to West coast.  He bought a practically new P-38 with extra superchargers for $600 and some change.  He flew it for a few years and sold it to a women for $2500.00 who air raced it.  If he would have only kept it.

[Niko182]

8 minutes ago, kerry said:

Just some perspective.  I have a friend who is 95 years old.  He started flying B17's at the age of 18 ww2.  At the end of the war his job was ferrying P38 Lightings from East coast to West coast.  He bought a practically new P-38 with extra superchargers for $600 and some change.  He flew it for a few years and sold it to a women for $2500.00 who air raced it.  If he would have only kept it.

I believe theyre worth around 6 to 7 million as of now.

[Jeff_S]

A quick Google search strengthens the idea that this is really a swastika cut down to size and not the Luftwaffe symbol.  The latter almost always seems to taper in from the ends of the cross toward the middle, whereas the OP’s picture shows straight lines. Also, the Luftwaffe cross is usually depicted with another thin black line outside the white border, where the swastika does not have this line.

 

[aviatoreb]

I find Nazi memorabilia creepy.  I don't begrudge anyone that keeps the stuff but just saying its not like other historical relics.

[Niko182]

I think the opposite of it. I understand that they were completely merciless, but the amount they were able to create and actually use just facinates me. The technology they were able to invent was amazing imo. But im not a fan of the way they used it.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

I think the opposite of it. I understand that they were completely merciless, but the amount they were able to create and actually use just facinates me. The technology they were able to invent was amazing imo. But im not a fan of the way they used it.

World wide the advancement in technology was amazing during WWII.

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, David Herman said:

Nazi is slang for National Socialist Party of Germany. They were convinced their way was so good, they should force it on the world.

Now that we have American political candidates with many supporters openly declaring their love for socialism,  I wonder how many of our generation really “get it?”

I’m sure many of the WWII veterans still living are very disturbed by the direction of our younger generations. 

 

The Nazi's may have called themselves socialist, but they were not socialists.  They were fascists.  Socialism as we interpret the word in today's formalism is something else entirely. Socialism is usually considered "lefty" and extremist left leads to what happened in Cuba for example under Castro.  Extreme righty is what happened under Mussolini in Italy or Germany under Hitler.  Extreme being the working word, extreme either way becoming ugly, and in all of those examples they became dictatorships and despite starting left or right came essentially to the same place.  I worry today of our future too.  But besides an extreme right, fascist dictatorship, the Nazi's distinguished themselves in history with a program of directed genocide.  As amazing as their engineering achievements were, I always get the creeps in a museum when I see anything with their swastika markings.  

I think it is important that there exist museums lest we forget: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana".  And I repeat I don't begrudge anyone for keeping that stuff, but it does give me the creeps because I think of gas chambers that the airplane fought for at the same time I think of the airplane that symbol was cut from.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

The Nazi's may have called themselves socialist, but they were not socialists.  They were fascists. 

How does Fascism differ from Socialism?  One claims your life belongs to the state, while the other...?  Uh, one claims that government should control the apparatus of production, while the other...?  Uh, the NAZIs persecuted Jews, while the USSR...?  Uh, one murdered millions of its citizens, while the other...?  Uh, running out of false comparisons, here.  Do not forget, Bismark was the founder of Socialism in Germany; Hitler was his Philosophical heir.

Perhaps you are thinking of Fascism vs. Communism.  There, the difference is clear; Communism is more honest.  The communists do not allow private property at all, while the fascists allowed private property, but without the capability of doing anything with it without the permission of the state, (which, of course, means there is no such thing as private property).  Fascism and Communism are merely opposite sides of the same Socialist coin.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Ah-1 Cobra Pilot
Clarification

[M016576]

9 minutes ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

How does fascism differ from socialism?  One claims your life belongs to the state, while the other...?  Uh, one claims that government should control the apparatus of production, while the other...?  Uh, the Nazis persecuted Jews, while the USSR...?  Uh, one murdered millions of its citizens, while the other...?  Uh, running out of false comparisons, here.

Perhaps you are thinking of Fascism vs. Communism.  There, the difference is clear; Communism is more honest.  The communists do not allow private property at all, while the fascists allowed private property, but without the capability of doing anything with it without the permission of the state, (which, of course, means there is no such thing as private property).  Fascism and Communism are merely opposite sides of the same Socialist coin.

I guess you could, in a manner say that communism and fascism are forks beholden to higher socialist values?  

Doesnt matter to me: I dislike all of them equally.

Im with you, though, Erik- some people are ok with that stuff. And there are those that say “well, some Germans at the time didn't Really know what’s going on, they are ok... and look at how they were able to create and so on and so forth.”  Mutual respect is rendered.  I have none of that: I find it very difficult to believe that ANY person in Germany could have NOT known what was happening.  And it gives me the creeps too.  I pray every night for the moral fortitude to do the right thing- make the hard choices if I’m ever faced with such evil.

funny.. people don’t seem to give the Japanese the same respects during the war- and their scientific advances were also impressive based on their resources.  And look at how differently we treated our enemies post war. And look at where those countries are now. Coincidence?

rant complete- flame suit on.

Edited December 29, 2017 by M016576

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Ah-1 Cobra Pilot said:

How does Fascism differ from Socialism?  One claims your life belongs to the state, while the other...?  Uh, one claims that government should control the apparatus of production, while the other...?  Uh, the NAZIs persecuted Jews, while the USSR...?  Uh, one murdered millions of its citizens, while the other...?  Uh, running out of false comparisons, here.  Do not forget, Bismark was the founder of Socialism in Germany; Hitler was his Philosophical heir.

I don't think you intend to be what-about- on human genocide but it is how it seems to come off.  yes there have been many human genocides in human history, proof that humans can be atrocious.  And to add to your list, let's say the Khmer Rouge under which flag died 3 million people.  I don't want a piece of memorabilia emblazoned with that either.  But as I said, I don't begrudge anyone keeps historical items either for engineering marvel or historical interest.  But not for me.

Now that said, no fascism is not socialism.  They are opposites.  Hitler distorted and prevented the historical, social, and cultural environment he came into to develop a truly ugly regime.  That is the practice of a dictator who over throws democracy and his was extreme in its outcome that became a tragedy for the whole world (the world war was an epic tragedy).  We need to respect these symbols for the evil they represent because as these atrocities keep happening we need to know that this is what humans are capable of, and we are all humans, so we need to all be alert to such things can happen even here.  This is the ugly failing of the human condition and complacency is how we get there.

Socialism is not identical to communism but communism belongs on the spectrum of extreme left.  Socialism is practiced in small dose in most western societies, including the US, and it includes public education, in countries like Canada and England social medicine, and even more so in Nordic countries.  Socialism is not a synonym for communism.  Communism as it was conceived originally may have seemed like a nice idea but it just didn't work, and became authoritarian governments essentially everywhere it was tried.  Fascism is premised on something else and is not Bismark's baby.

Edited December 30, 2017 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

I guess you could, in a manner say that communism and fascism are forks beholden to higher socialist values?  

Doesnt matter to me: I dislike all of them equally.

Im with you, though, Erik- some people are ok with that stuff. And there are those that say “well, some Germans at the time didn't Really know what’s going on, they are ok... and look at how they were able to create and so on and so forth.”  Mutual respect is rendered.  I have none of that: I find it very difficult to believe that ANY person in Germany could have NOT known what was happening.  And it gives me the creeps too.  I pray every night for the moral fortitude to do the right thing- make the hard choices if I’m ever faced with such evil.

funny.. people don’t seem to give the Japanese the same respects during the war- and their scientific advances were also impressive based on their resources.  And look at how differently we treated our enemies post war. And look at where those countries are now. Coincidence?

rant complete- flame suit on.

I toured a war time underground public bunker during a business trip to Berlin a few years ago.  The tour guide, a German lady, emphasized at some point, when she got to a museum room of items, when she showed us the coats and clothing which were marked with stitched in people's names, taken from concentration camp victims names, and often religious symbols with the stitches removed but still imprinted, and then later re-allocated to other German citizens, that there was no way that not every one knew what was happening.

The Japanese had tremendous technology too.

So did the American's.  And the French, and English, and Italians, and so on.

A B32 bomber was a high altitude flying machine that was the equivalent of a modern day space shuttle just under 40 years or so after the wright brothers.

[M016576]

2 hours ago, David Herman said:

I think you are perhaps ignorant of many facts:  like the thousands of Germany’s own citizens imprisoned in those camps, anyone who spoke against the German Socialist Party  ... or refused an invitation to join an armed service ... disappeared!!!!

As far as the Japanese ... how about dupilicity and deciept of the Japanese government, while for over a year they spied and planned the attack on Pearl Harbour ... or the thousands of US prisoners murdered on the Bataan Death March, or the unhumane treatment of US Prisoners of War, like, Loius Zamparini and Greg Boyington, ... or the thousands of Korean women imprisoned and used as sex slaves by the Japanese-then murdered  by the Japanese when the Allies would win an island, or the other Korean labor slaves lined-up and forced off cliffs to their deaths ... (for example) when the Allies came to an island ... mmmm... not to mention ... the Germans didn’t attack Pearl Harbor. Or consider the accounts of the Japanese treatment of the Chinese as documented by members of the American Expeditionary Force (Flying Tigers) like General Chenault, Colonel Bob Scott or Greg Boyington? 

I love how the modern liberal think tank has tried to rewrite history:   We were good to Germany, but bad to Japan. Liberal BS. One nation attacked us, was located in an independent island and refused to surrender, another nation was on a continent shared by many countries, surrendered, and was split between western and eastern influences (American and British control versus Russia) There are not direct parallels between the Axis powers ... except that each was an evil orchestrated by their government. 

It is well documented that many Japanese would and did shoot pilots in their parachutes... or in their rafts in the water ... while most German pilots  would not.  It’s a small, seemingly hypocritical gesture of chivalry, but if you were a pilot dangling in the parachute, who would you prefer??? 

My point is that both nations were evil.  Horribly evil, the likes of which the world has not seen.  The Germans treated western opponents with some semblance of dignity not out of honor, but out of belief in their aryan principles.  Those principles also were what drove attempted Genocide. So to say that their chivalry somehow makes up for attempting to round up and kill entire races of people is short sided.  To say that the rape of Nanking, or their wartime atrocities were more grave than the attempted genocide is an apples oranges comparison.  Both were tremendously, morally evil.

as for facts- Germany would have attacked us if they could have.  They certainly were attacking England.  And allied forces had to take the capital of the Nazi empire, and completely occupy Germany, To force them to surrender.  We didn’t take the Japanese capital, or even set foot on Honshu.  they surrendered once it was apparent we held terrifying power over them... dropping the Abombs saved countless lives and they did surrender.  Too bad hitler didn’t recognize that when Russian and US tanks were crossing the German border.

Dont mistake my comments for revisionist history: both empires were terrifyingly Evil. My point was that some people tend to view the German people as victims- which I don’t believe they were- all that stood against the allies did so to support their evil empire, and should be held accountable for their actions, not given quarter.

and I hang under that parachute you describe.  One of the risks I take, every time I strap on a fighter jet, is that the enemy will kill me.  If they shoot me in my parachute or kill me on the ground- that’s outside of my control.  I wouldn’t want that, and that’s why I fight for a nation that isn’t beholden to a person, but to the rights of people.  

I guess what I’m saying is this: I wasn’t defending the Japanese empire, or their actions, or arguing that they should have gotten off easier- quite the opposite.  I was simply stating that the Germans should have received an even accounting for their atrocities (that’s a contentious point- some believe we were TOO harsh on them- I disagree.)

Edit:  I’m not a Liberal... and I realized that we might both be arguing the same point to some degree.

Edited December 30, 2017 by M016576

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, David Herman said:

I love how the modern liberal think tank has tried to rewrite history:   We were good to Germany, but bad to Japan. Liberal BS.  

Hey, I call BS on that.  

Let's be Americans and lets remember we are a democracy.  The genocide in these wars, and many other wars - I mentioned some - is something I think liberals and conservative alike can agree is not American or democracy values.  Let's see if we can discuss history without bringing the lens of today's partisan times, even if it is currently fashionable to do so.  I am capable of thinking about many things without it being about the dichotomy of liberal versus conservative, and I trust you can too, and so can Job, and Job I found it not necessary for you to identify your political identity to justify your knowledge of history.  I know you meant the best by that, but this is a bad path for us to go down.  There are not two histories.

I know a great deal about, quantum mechanics, the theory of relativity, complex analysis, functional analysis, electronics, and on and on in the scientific field, AND a great deal about historical happenings, and on and on, and I do not care to identify my political persuasion someday if I stand up to talk about say, quantum computing, or my factual knowledge of what happened in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, or the atrocities of the Japanese in China during the war, or ..and on and on, there are facts of what happened.  If we ever come to a day when I must identify my political persuasion to recount history any more than my knowledge of complex analysis, then we have begum to go down the path to become exactly the thing we are describing.

Its my fault - and I take full blame for starting it (and my excuse is it started in my thinking about airplanes histories) - but this thread is sort of in danger of becoming political.  If we work hard, we can keep it on the factual side of that line.  :-)

[Mcstealth]

By the Grace of God, critical errors by the evils at hand in the '40s, and blind luck are/is why America is America today. Probably Mooeyspacers all know this. Unfortunately, I do not believe the most current 1.5 of our American generations have an understanding of this. And worse is they don't care to know.

The apathy shown of/by this generation per my experience is mind-blowing. To them, I'm just an old idiot at that knows nothing. Just ask my 21 year old son. 

If  artifacts from Nazi Germany makes you feel, creepy so be it. That's your prerogative.

To be fair, the Japanese were just as atrocious and merciless to their enemies. 

I am rambling, and have a lot of cold medicine in me. Sorry for the rambling