Career Advice

[Candy man]

looking for some advice for my high school senior. ( I know opinions and advice are hard to come by on this site).

i have 17 year old senior in high school who has no idea what he wants to do. He's very capable but has not done particularly well in school. Nothing careee wise has really jumped out  and grabbed him. He's flown with me often and really enjoys it, so I had an instructor give him an intro flight, and he loved it. I spoke to a buddy  of mine that flies for UPS and was really amazed at what these guys are earning. So my questions are as follows.

1, aviation has always been a cyclical business but everyone swears it's different this time. Is there really a pilot shortage and does it appear it will stay that way?

2, Training  should he look civilian, air national guard or consider full time military. ( I expect a lot if different opinions on this question).

3, if he chooses a civilian training route, is the 4 year degree still a must for the airlines?                                   

 

Thanks  in advance and please feel free to answer any questions including ones that I may not have thought to ask.

 

Lawrence

[jetdriven]

Ive been lucky, at best, average intelligence and a 2 year degree. I went to the regionals then a freight co, then got the 4yr online degree then the economy got right and got picked up at a major. Now, the job is rather easy, get the plane from a to B to C without messing up, get paid good and go home.  I would say most people work way harder to make that kind of money.

But being a pilot is like being pregnant, everyone congratulates you but never asked how many times you got screwed to get there.

1. it is definitely a lifetime shortage for the next few years, dont waste time, though.  Sooner is better.

2. get a commercial instrument multi, then the CFI and get ATP mins... FAST.  civilian is faster. pay it back with the ridiculous bonuses the regionals are offering.

3.  4 year degree is still a requirement for a major. Do it online at ERAU while flying for the regionals, when you get the 2 years jet time to upgrade, the 4-yr degree is yours and now jet PIC, you become a candidate for the majors.

That is my story, again,  I  went from high school dropout in Oklahoma to pilot,  he can too.

[smwash02]

I'm glad I found aviation later instead of making it a career.

If he's passionate about it, getting his CFI/II before college and going for a 4 year STEM degree will give him side income while he studies, meet the requirement for the majors, and a fall back if it's not his thing or there's an incident that precludes him from continuing in the field.

[Skates97]

4 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Ive been lucky, at best, average intelligence and a 2 year degree. I went to the regionals then a freight co, then got the 4yr online degree then the economy got right and got picked up at a major. Now, the job is rather easy, get the plane from a to B to C without messing up, get paid good and go home.  I would say most people work way harder to make that kind of money.

But being a pilot is like being pregnant, everyone congratulates you but never asked how many times you got screwed to get there.

1. it is definitely a lifetime shortage for the next few years, dont waste time, though.  Sooner is better.

2. get a commercial instrument multi, then the CFI and get ATP mins... FAST.  civilian is faster. pay it back with the ridiculous bonuses the regionals are offering.

3.  4 year degree is still a requirement for a major. Do it online at ERAU while flying for the regionals, when you get the 2 years jet time to upgrade, the 4-yr degree is yours and now jet PIC, you become a candidate for the majors.

That is my story, again,  I  went from high school dropout in Oklahoma to pilot,  he can too.

That is hysterical!

I can't speak for getting into flying for a career. I wanted to go active duty Air Force and fly but political changes in the early-mid 90's meant you had to be at the Academy to get a pilot slot and I was ROTC. Fast forward and I finally started flying when I was 43. At this point I make more than I could if I was flying for a living so I will work my 8ish-5 M-F job and fly when I want, where I want, and with who I want.

I will second what Byron said about getting the online degree. For my new position at work they wanted an accounting degree. So, I went back and picked up where I had left off 25 years earlier (that was going to be a Bio-Engineering degree). I needed a couple credits to finish an AA and then did the online thing with Colorado State finishing up the last two years in 18 months. There are a lot of schools that have adopted online programs. With some discipline it is very doable, but I would check around because while many of the programs are very similar, the tuition costs vary greatly.

[MB65E]

If I were to do it again, I think I would have paid a bit more attention in school. Actually studied for the ASVAB test. Then ROTC while at college, OTS,  then cross my fingers for a Viper spot. Probably stay in until retirement then fly for the majors. Who knows. 

That said, corporate maintenance is great! The flying I do is pretty neat too. I'd say the next ten years will be awesome for everyone, until the airlines figure out that they are paying too much and find a way to have the 737 flown single pilot. Until that happens, I'd tell him to hammer down and get it done!! 

-Matt

[jetdriven]

15 minutes ago, MB65E said:

If I were to do it again, I think I would have paid a bit more attention in school. Actually studied for the ASVAB test. Then ROTC while at college, OTS,  then cross my fingers for a Viper spot. Probably stay in until retirement then fly for the majors. Who knows. 

That said, corporate maintenance is great! The flying I do is pretty neat too. I'd say the next ten years will be awesome for everyone, until the airlines figure out that they are paying too much and find a way to have the 737 flown single pilot. Until that happens, I'd tell him to hammer down and get it done!! 

-Matt

Until then, turbo 911's for all!..

[MB65E]

Turbo S please!

-Matt

[jetdriven]

YEP!

[Drumstick]

9 minutes ago, MB65E said:

If I were to do it again, I think I would have paid a bit more attention in school. Actually studied for the ASVAB test. Then ROTC while at college, OTS,  then cross my fingers for a Viper spot. Probably stay in until retirement then fly for the majors. Who knows. 

That said, corporate maintenance is great! The flying I do is pretty neat too. I'd say the next ten years will be awesome for everyone, until the airlines figure out that they are paying too much and find a way to have the 737 flown single pilot. Until that happens, I'd tell him to hammer down and get it done!! 

-Matt

I think its likely to see cargo and maybe corporate jets to go single piloted IFR (abandon the 12.5K rule) before airliners. 

 

59 minutes ago, Candy man said:

looking for some advice for my high school senior. ( I know opinions and advice are hard to come by on this site).

i have 17 year old senior in high school who has no idea what he wants to do. He's very capable but has not done particularly well in school. Nothing careee wise has really jumped out  and grabbed him. He's flown with me often and really enjoys it, so I had an instructor give him an intro flight, and he loved it. I spoke to a buddy  of mine that flies for UPS and was really amazed at what these guys are earning. So my questions are as follows.

1, aviation has always been a cyclical business but everyone swears it's different this time. Is there really a pilot shortage and does it appear it will stay that way?

2, Training  should he look civilian, air national guard or consider full time military. ( I expect a lot if different opinions on this question).

3, if he chooses a civilian training route, is the 4 year degree still a must for the airlines?                                   

 

Thanks  in advance and please feel free to answer any questions including ones that I may not have thought to ask.

 

Lawrence

1 - There will never be a pilot shortage at a major airline.  There will be a shortage of pilots willing to work for fast food wages...or even PAY to work.

2 - Civilian training is faster but not superior to military flight training.  It will always be competitive to get INTO the military.  The military doesn't treat their mid-grade officers well which is why there is a shortage of experienced mid-grade officer pilots.  If primarily interested in flying go AirGuard first before going regular active duty.  A military pilot with 1500-2000 hrs of tactical fighter time is more competitive for a job at a major airline than a regional airline pilot with 10,000 hours as a first officer.

3.  4 year degree required for American, Delta, United, Fedex, UPS and currently SWA.  Alaska and Hawaiian are the only two legacy airlines that MAY hire you without a degree but you will likely be a coming from a foreign airline or ACMI carrier like Atlas to get hired.

The big hiring boom will last for 10-15 years and then expect a period of stagnation.  The mandatory retirement numbers are pretty staggering over the next 5-10 years.  I would expect every military pilot that leaves and every CURRENT regional airline pilot to be able to eventually move to a major inside 10 years.   A pilot just starting as regional first officer in the late 2020s will likely be at the regional for 10+ years and without a degree..permanently.  Regional airlines understand they are a stepping stone to a major which gives them leverage to treat their pilots pretty poorly.

My advice to your son if he wants to be a pro pilot.  Get his certificates and hours as fast as possible and get on with a regional and expect to stay there until he completes a degree.  Get a degree that he can use to pay the bills if he loses his medical.  I've heard engineering pays well at the entry level.

Good luck!

 

[Jim Peace]

7 hours ago, Drumstick said:

4 year degree required for American, Delta, United, Fedex, UPS and currently SWA.  

4 year degree is "preferred" not required.  UPS has hired pilots without a 4 year degree.  UAL has hired pilots with a BS, not (bachelor of science) non-accredited online 4 year degree.

[Jim Peace]

9 hours ago, Candy man said:

spoke to a buddy  of mine that flies for UPS and was really amazed at what these guys are earning.

I guess I should be shopping for an Acclaim S.  What am I doing slumming it in a C for?

[tigers2007]

Is this kid a mama’s boy or is he willing to leave Home for a little while? I’d convince him to join the USAF or USCG. If he ever wants a gubment job, prior mil service is huge. From what I’ve read lately, the USAF needs pilots too. I know of folks who are ANG reservist pilots and crew members who have been flying for YEARS and haven’t been doing their regular day jobs (CRNA for example...). Now that guy has it made - already banks $200k+ as a nurse anesthetist but flies for fun in the ANG. I have a co worker who is a crewman in the ANG who hasn’t been physically at work more than 80% of the time - yet he is racking up his LEO pension credits. He’ll retire from the military AND from the Fed but have a nice chunky pension.

Flying for a living is risky not just because of the job but because you can lose your career if you run into serious health issues. What would your son do at age 30, after he has spent $100k on flight training AND years of his prime life but finds out he has a chronic cardiac condition? Yeah - a lot of people run into these issues and live a regular life just fine. This is not an issue of you are an attorney, **CPA**, physician, nurse, bureaucrat, or even a flat-foot cop. I highlighted CPA as my dad is about to retire with 50+ yrs on the job. There is a huge shortage of CPA’s. He is the LAST man in the office too; apparently only women want to make $150-350k+ a year for reconciling tax forms. There are CPA’s that only work during the tax season and take off May-Oct...good luck with your sales pitch to your boy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Raptor05121]

Help him with what he wants, but don't force him to drink water. He really has to really obsessed with flying to get a career in it. 

There's nothing wrong with not knowing what to do. I'm 26 and still confused.

[Jerry 5TJ]

8 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

There's nothing wrong with not knowing what to do. I'm 26 and still confused by what I want to do.

Nearly 4 decades older I still don’t know and I’ve given up expecting to feel such certainty.  

In retrospect, tho, it is best to be flexible, accumulate academic and useful job experience, enthusiastically go about doing work you like, and be lucky. 

 

 

 

 

[GeorgePerry]

10 hours ago, Candy man said:

looking for some advice for my high school senior. ( I know opinions and advice are hard to come by on this site).

i have 17 year old senior in high school who has no idea what he wants to do. He's very capable but has not done particularly well in school. Nothing careee wise has really jumped out  and grabbed him. He's flown with me often and really enjoys it, so I had an instructor give him an intro flight, and he loved it. I spoke to a buddy  of mine that flies for UPS and was really amazed at what these guys are earning. So my questions are as follows.

1, aviation has always been a cyclical business but everyone swears it's different this time. Is there really a pilot shortage and does it appear it will stay that way?

2, Training  should he look civilian, air national guard or consider full time military. ( I expect a lot if different opinions on this question).

3, if he chooses a civilian training route, is the 4 year degree still a must for the airlines?                                   

 

Thanks  in advance and please feel free to answer any questions including ones that I may not have thought to ask.

 

Lawrence

Lawrence

These questions require an in depth discussion.  As someone who started in the civilian side of the business (ERAU, CFI, Freight and charter flying) and switched over to the military (20 years in F-14/F18 Aircraft) and now fly for a major airline, I'd be happy to discuss the pro's and con's of different career paths and hiring trends.

As an aside I gave my 13 year old son his first lesson two weeks ago.  He's interested in flying so this topic is near and dear to me.  If you'd like to discuss send me a PM and we'll connect.

ATB,

George

[Becca]

10 hours ago, Candy man said:

looking for some advice for my high school senior. ( I know opinions and advice are hard to come by on this site).

i have 17 year old senior in high school who has no idea what he wants to do. He's very capable but has not done particularly well in school. Nothing careee wise has really jumped out  and grabbed him. He's flown with me often and really enjoys it, so I had an instructor give him an intro flight, and he loved it. I spoke to a buddy  of mine that flies for UPS and was really amazed at what these guys are earning. So my questions are as follows.

1, aviation has always been a cyclical business but everyone swears it's different this time. Is there really a pilot shortage and does it appear it will stay that way?

2, Training  should he look civilian, air national guard or consider full time military. ( I expect a lot if different opinions on this question).

3, if he chooses a civilian training route, is the 4 year degree still a must for the airlines?                                   

 

Thanks  in advance and please feel free to answer any questions including ones that I may not have thought to ask.

 

Lawrence

Advice is worth what you pay for it!

3.  Yes, a 4 year college degree is absolutely mandatory for access to all the "major" airlines (the ones that pay that minimum wage you mention).  Some people will tell you "I know a guy" that did without.  But those are few and far between (and you sometimes find out that "the guy" is the nephew of the chief pilot or something"), this is about the odds, and the odds say go to college.  As Byron mentioned you don't have to go to college right away, but will have to eventually, and it only gets harder and more expensive when you get older.  I used to be on all these annoying pilot wife forums and I feel like that was the number one thing holding many of their husbands back in miserable regional jobs and they were like "well i don't want my husband to go to college, he's barely at home as it is, and we need to buy a house we can't pay his tuition!"  Those problems are solved if you do things in the more responsible order which is school->profession->family.  However, things can be done differently, its just harder.  Byron touts the version of his online degree, but it was expensive in a lot of ways -- for instance, he missed an airline hiring window in the years he did not have a degree but was otherwise qualified for major airline jobs, also ERAU online is WAY more expensive than your local In-State-U that you could go to at the same time you work on your initial aviation ratings.  It was what it was, but it wasn't optimal.

1. yes, there's a shortage for low paying regional airline jobs.  And that's driving up wages, which I think is really really good.   For major airlines (the ones you mention pay like UPS), there are still 8 qualified applicants for 1 opening; the military will still be producing pilots to fill these high paying slots; and the average age of a new hire at a major is 39 years old, so you should still plan for a 20 year career BEFORE that job that does not look as good.

3.  there's no right answer.  Do you think your kid would do well in the military -- does he like to follow orders, is he ok moving once every 3 years, is he athletically fit, does he value his hair?  If so, especially considering it sounds like he's not very directed right now, maybe he should consider enlisting for a few years - it will give him some direction, focus, and good experience.  I think a lot of people would benefit from that experience and he can sort out what he wants to do with his life.  He could take advantage of military flying clubs and get his licenses on his days off, etc.  Pilot slots, though, go to officers, which requires a college degree.  So go to college and do ROTC, for example.  Or go to college and then do OCS.  He can still explore his flying interest while in college -- Georgia Tech, where I went, had a very reasonably priced flying club, many students became CFI's by their sophomore year and were instructing on the side their junior year.  I imagine the same thing can be done at a local FBO or flight school in proximity to college.  There are also aviation colleges, but if it were  me I would not pay ERAU's ridiculous aviation prices to get an "aviation" degree that is worthless to do anything else, when you can get an accounting or engineering or something else degree if you decide a career in aviation is not for you, while getting all the same time-building aviation experience for probably cheaper.  But that's me.

I am really glad your kid enjoyed his intro flight, but one intro flight does not a career in aviation make, its just a good start.  Get him some flying lessons, let him consider further.  Have him talk to pilots.  Even when you "make it" at an airline, its lots of days away especially in the summer and holidays, until you are super senior (think your late 50's), that's not for every family, every wife, every parent, etc.  There is still uncertainty.  Not everyone wants a professional spouse, but given the cycling of the aviation industry a second income is essential to pilot families.  This does not work for everyone.

My own experience was I learned to fly at 17, and did a lot of soul searching and realized I wanted it as a passionate hobby.  Not a career.  My career was aerospace engineering, mission control, project management, and now lawyering.  We all change over time.  I have 5 brothers, not a one of them had any form of direction at 17, it works itself out. 

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by Becca

[Mooneymite]

Some people love flying.  Some people love their flying jobs.  Only a few people who really love flying get a great flying job.

I am absolutely amazed at the number of professional pilots who really don't care that much for flying.  Strange.

If your son really loves flying, HE will make it happen.  If flying is just a career choice, he may realize late in life he chose the wrong mountain to climb.

As his dad, give him the wisdom to choose wisely.  Sadly, most of us only have the time and energy to climb one mountain in a lifetime.

[N601RX]

See if there is any industries in your area that will let him shadow their employees for a few days. We do this regularly for high school students at work. The student will come in for a day or couple of days and we will let them spend a few hours with people at work who work in different professions, mainly different areas of engineering.

 

Edited December 2, 2017 by N601RX

[Raptor05121]

21 hours ago, N601RX said:

See if there is any industries in your area that will let him shadow their employees for a few days. We do this regularly for high school students at work. The student will come in for a day or couple of days and we will let them spend a few hours with people at work who work in different professions, mainly different areas of engineering.

 

I wish they would have done this for me, now that I realize how much male strippers make

[Andy95W]

51 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

I wish they would have done this for me, now that I realize how much male strippers make

Well, you were pretty quick to show off your legs in the picture in a different thread, so you may have a penchant for the work...

[gitmo234]

I can only offer my perspective. I was the 100% typical Bart Simpson. In gifted classes (and kicked out of them several times over) for most of school. Left home at 17 to be on my own and worked full time (retail and crap) my last year of school and rented an apartment, because i was smarter than everyone and knew the world better. Joined the air force, scraped by at aircraft maintenance with a subpar performance record (they dont like you punching out people and pointing out how things can be done better sometimes). 

Finished up that enlistment and ended up with a very junior position in the federal government in office administration. I started to rise through the ranks because the defiance that hurt me elsewhere helped me innovate a bit there. Next thing I know I'm somehow considering the military again only part time. I get a degree in computer science. Do my testing and school and commission. 

Still rising through the federal ranks, and generally "okay" as an army infantry officer, my brigade commander does a review of all his junior officers and corners me. Overall schooling and scores are super high and in his opinion it explains why i dont fit the mold well and he finds me a position in space operations, with a promotion, which works because I had also gotten a masters degree in space systems (with some space systems engineering). I deploy and succeed enough that word gets back that my products I developed in a combat zone are now training material for a national space agency, and I get promoted to very senior grade in my civilian position and they're paying for my PhD, and sending me to a very prestigious school for executive development at the same time.

 

Now...if I was back in your sons shoes and I wanted to do aviation for a living. I would tell myself to calm down a bit, and its okay to "follow orders" on occasion, and to suck it up for the schooling. Just because you can sleep through a computer science degree doesn't mean you should. It's also okay to realize you might not fit in with the military crowd, but its about the quickest way to get flight training completed (and get paid for doing it). If he wanted to go rotary wing I could probably put him in part time myself. I'm glad for my road i went down but it couldve been a whole lot easier. 

[cliffy]

Interesting position you are in and I was there twice! 2 sons, neither wanted to go into flying. Both found their "passion" in other fields. The youngest took 10 years to find his after HS. Your guidance will influence their desire to have work ethics but may not influence their ultimate career path. 

To your question- I've spent 55 years in the flying game. Both on the ground (A&P, airline and civilian) and in the air (corporate, cargo, charter, airline). I've only known 1 person who had the "golden aviation career". He got hired by largest major at 20, flew 38 years, retired as #2 and never missed a pay check, never went on furlough, never had a strike. The BIG pay checks just kept rolling in BUT he spent days away from home every week, slept in hotels 3 nights a week+, never had holidays off and it wasn't until he was in double digits seniority wise that he could fly when HE wanted. 

I've got 5 airlines and 7 corporations on my now dead resume all of which are dead except the last airline. But, I chose my path because I was passionate about flying from the age of 10.  

My one son who teaches HS English (he's the one with a Masters in the subject) says that he sees only 1 or 2 out of 10 at 17 who have any idea what they want to do in life. Your input for the next 5 years at least needs to be focused on keeping him on the right path being human being and man. HE has to find his career path. 

I was lucky even with the one who "wandered" for 10 years in that neither went off the rails and dropped into drugs or illegal activity. I frankly don't know how I did it but my sister and family  tell me it was how I related to my boys (even through a very rough time of divorce where I was left to raise them). YOU will influence him more than anyone, help him, guide him, spend quality time with him. It makes a difference in the long run. 

The best years are ahead, spend them with him doing things. He'll work out his own path.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

If I had it to do all over again...

As soon as I was old enough, (17 with parental permission), I would join the National Guard in order to get a HIghSchool-to-FlightSchool slot.  That would get me flying helicopters while going to college on the GI Bill.  I could be in ROTC with a good scholarship, if I chose to.  Once I graduated, I could move for an Engineering job and take a commission in the Guard/Air Guard, go full-time active duty, etc.  That would open up endless possibilities.

It DOES make a difference what state you are in; the Guard is very different between states, including aircraft type, numbers of aircraft, deployment schedules, etc.  States with large military bases often have plenty of AC pilots wanting to move to the Guard.  Getting into the Air Guard can be like rushing a fraternity, but it depends on how many pilots and slots they have.  Timing is also a lot of it, as flight slots vary greatly.

[Johnnybgoode]

I'd do it all over again just like I did, or try to at least.  Lots has to do with luck/timing...

EE degree, Virginia Tech, paid for by me through working co-ops and through academic scholarships.  Guard C-130 slot, training for which began 6 months after graduation from college.  Finished copilot school just after 9/11.  Deployed a lot.  Upgraded to AC then IP then got hired at Delta.  Coming up on 19 years in the Guard, 10 at Delta - I'm good for 20 for Uncle Sam but probably not much more than that.  I commute to both, but my Mooney (and an RV-4) help to take some of the pain out of the commuting lifestyle.

My advice to your son is to get an education he won't mind using as his day job!  Never know when something in life might impact that medical in your pocket.  If he gets to go flying afterwards, all the better.  If not, he's set up in something that he enjoys, and that pays the bills. Good luck to him!

Patrick

 

[peevee]

On 12/1/2017 at 9:22 PM, Candy man said:

looking for some advice for my high school senior. ( I know opinions and advice are hard to come by on this site).

i have 17 year old senior in high school who has no idea what he wants to do. He's very capable but has not done particularly well in school. Nothing careee wise has really jumped out  and grabbed him. He's flown with me often and really enjoys it, so I had an instructor give him an intro flight, and he loved it. I spoke to a buddy  of mine that flies for UPS and was really amazed at what these guys are earning. So my questions are as follows.

1, aviation has always been a cyclical business but everyone swears it's different this time. Is there really a pilot shortage and does it appear it will stay that way?

2, Training  should he look civilian, air national guard or consider full time military. ( I expect a lot if different opinions on this question).

3, if he chooses a civilian training route, is the 4 year degree still a must for the airlines?                                   

 

Thanks  in advance and please feel free to answer any questions including ones that I may not have thought to ask.

 

Lawrence

your money will go a lot further trying to get him to go the ATC route. It's a cyclical hiring process but if he times it right it pays alright.