Bendix/King news on AvWeb about KI-300

[johncuyle]

  On 8/2/2017 at 6:00 AM, LANCECASPER said:

I agree I was just saying that the Aspen is closer to $15000 not $7000.

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Oh.  My post was ambiguously worded.  I didn't mean the Aspen was $7k, I meant that the KI 300 at $7k is difficult to justify against the Aspen at current Aspen pricing, and that's only if the KI 300 also replaces the KI 525.  Which it does not appear to.  Hope my KI 256 keeps working for a couple three more years, I guess...

[gsengle]

  On 8/2/2017 at 4:01 AM, KSMooniac said:

It will be the G3X. The G500/600 is old hardware now and I bet it goes out of production soon...


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You would have thought so, but the folks who talked to Garmin at osh swore early in the week that the cub crafters thing they had nothing to do with and that they had no plans to certify the g3x. Which leads me to believe that they think or at least thought they had that covered. Maybe not, but I don't think they'd be that smug without a replacement in the works.


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[KSMooniac]

I bet we'll know before the end of the year, especially if Dynon gets their STC in the next couple of months as they predict.

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[peevee]

  On 8/2/2017 at 6:09 AM, johncuyle said:

Oh.  My post was ambiguously worded.  I didn't mean the Aspen was $7k, I meant that the KI 300 at $7k is difficult to justify against the Aspen at current Aspen pricing, and that's only if the KI 300 also replaces the KI 525.  Which it does not appear to.  Hope my KI 256 keeps working for a couple three more years, I guess...

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The ki300 costs less than installing the Aspen autopilot interface if the current pricing holds at 4300 or whatever it is.  I have been quoted over 5k to add the ea100

[mike_elliott]

  On 8/2/2017 at 5:57 AM, Tommy said:

This thing is a re-badged product that took 4 years to roll out

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...and counting....

[PTK]

It's funny that everyone has something to say and is all over BK with their delaying the release of the KI300, yet no one is saying anything about Garmin not giving us attitude reference in their G5 or anybody else for that matter. BK simply decided to give us more features in the KI300 so they changed it and plan to deliver it next month. That's good thing. What is Garmin doing? Forcing is to buy more than we need?!

[mike_elliott]

  On 8/2/2017 at 1:09 PM, PTK said:

It's funny that everyone has something to say and is all over BK with their delaying the release of the KI300

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as they should

  On 8/2/2017 at 1:09 PM, PTK said:

yet no one is saying anything about Garmin not giving us attitude reference in their G5

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they have a different product that covers this, the G500

  On 8/2/2017 at 1:09 PM, PTK said:

BK simply decided to give us more features in the KI300

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or simply couldn't get RC allen to get theirs certified under the terms they wanted, so they are having to backtrack in a hurry.

  On 8/2/2017 at 1:09 PM, PTK said:

so they changed it and plan to deliver it next month

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that doesn't reset the clock, 4 years and still counting.........

[Jerry 5TJ]

Can one describe the KI-300 as "new and upgraded version" if the original never existed? 

[smccray]

  On 8/2/2017 at 1:09 PM, PTK said:

What is Garmin doing? Forcing is to buy more than we need?!

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They're setting up their business to benefit themselves.  If I were Garmin I would do exactly the same thing.

I would rather have a G5 will an attitude reference for the king autopilot too, but if that means I would need to charge $6K instead of $3K for the AI, then it's a fairly simple exercise to look at the cost/benefit.  Who knows the relative cost of providing the G5 with a King output vs the GFC500, but I suspect that the Garmin strategy is to do the GFC 500 regardless.  At that point, how many incremental G5s will Garmin sell if the output the AI to the king autopilot?  How much value is there to Garmin if they lock an airplane into the Garmin ecosystem- the G5 requires Garmin navigators and the Garmin autopilot?  

Let's not forget that the KI300 is significantly more expensive than either the SAI340 or the G5.  For me, it makes more sense to rip out the King system and go with Garmin compared to the KI300 and a G5 HSI.  Garmin is IBM- there are a lot of people who will pay more for Garmin because it's Garmin, and that's okay.  However, looking at the KI300 + G5, it makes more sense to me to go Dynon.  It's going to be fascinating to watch how everything shakes out.

[LANCECASPER]

  On 8/2/2017 at 1:09 PM, PTK said:

It's funny that everyone has something to say and is all over BK with their delaying the release of the KI300, yet no one is saying anything about Garmin not giving us attitude reference in their G5 or anybody else for that matter. BK simply decided to give us more features in the KI300 so they changed it and plan to deliver it next month. That's good thing. What is Garmin doing? Forcing is to buy more than we need?!

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Hang on . . . did I detect disappointment in Garmin? 

I agree, Garmin would have hit a home run if the G5 would have provided attitude information to the older autopilots. I'm sure it could have, but then they wouldn't have been able to sell as many of their new autopilots.

[LANCECASPER]

  On 8/2/2017 at 7:11 AM, gsengle said:

 

You would have thought so, but the folks who talked to Garmin at osh swore early in the week that the cub crafters thing they had nothing to do with and that they had no plans to certify the g3x. Which leads me to believe that they think or at least thought they had that covered. Maybe not, but I don't think they'd be that smug without a replacement in the works.


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Hard to say, earlier this year Garmin swore that they weren't going to interface the certified G5 to autopilots.

[gsengle]

  On 8/2/2017 at 2:00 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Hang on . . . did I detect disappointment in Garmin? 
I agree, Garmin would have hit a home run if the G5 would have provided attitude information to the older autopilots. I'm sure it could have, but then they wouldn't have been able to seel as many of their new autopilots.

It's not Garmin's responsibility to keep us happy with our king autopilots. To keep us operating at reasonable cost while selling us good upgrades and keeping us in their family. THATS KINGS JOB.


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[LANCECASPER]

Actually both of their jobs are to make a profit for their shareholders. If they make us happy or keep us happy in the meantime, that's ok too.

[gsengle]

  On 8/2/2017 at 2:03 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Actually both of their jobs are to make a profit for their shareholders. If they make us happy or keep us happy in the meantime, that's ok too.

And the way that is achieved is by keeping customers. To say that one is disappointed as some have done, with Garmin, for not fixing our king autopilot woes, is kinda silly.


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[LANCECASPER]

But this is first recorded instance that Peter has publicly mentioned disappointment in Garmin, so I couldn't resist pointing it out, but we still love him. 

[Oldguy]

  On 8/2/2017 at 1:31 PM, smccray said:

They're setting up their business to benefit themselves.  If I were Garmin I would do exactly the same thing.

I would rather have a G5 will an attitude reference for the king autopilot too, but if that means I would need to charge $6K instead of $3K for the AI, then it's a fairly simple exercise to look at the cost/benefit.  Who knows the relative cost of providing the G5 with a King output vs the GFC500, but I suspect that the Garmin strategy is to do the GFC 500 regardless.  At that point, how many incremental G5s will Garmin sell if the output the AI to the king autopilot?  How much value is there to Garmin if they lock an airplane into the Garmin ecosystem- the G5 requires Garmin navigators and the Garmin autopilot?  

Let's not forget that the KI300 is significantly more expensive than either the SAI340 or the G5.  For me, it makes more sense to rip out the King system and go with Garmin compared to the KI300 and a G5 HSI.  Garmin is IBM- there are a lot of people who will pay more for Garmin because it's Garmin, and that's okay.  However, looking at the KI300 + G5, it makes more sense to me to go Dynon.  It's going to be fascinating to watch how everything shakes out.

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So let's say I, with my GNS430W, KAP 150, King HSI and AI wanted to go with the dual G5/GFC500. From the looks of it, the GFC500 itself runs $6995, the optional electric pitch trim is additional ($$ unknown), dual G5s for $6000 (is that close enough?), and, since I have a GNS 430W, I might need the additional NAV interface they cite as required for "...select Garmin GPS or VHF radios." ($$ unknown). And all of this is before installation.

I see where they publish a $10,000 cost before installation for the 172 system, but I am questioning how that would apply to something like a Mooney. There is probably not an electric trim option, not the additional NAV I/F, and a single G5. I am thinking I should put a $20,000 or greater price tag on the Garmin upgrade with included installation and about the same in reserve for a KI300/KFC230 upgrade with funds for rebuilding some existing components.

Or, like Scott indicates above, I think I might just wait and see what Dynon, TruTrak and others roll out in the coming year.

[gsengle]

  On 8/2/2017 at 2:37 PM, Oldguy said:

So let's say I, with my GNS430W, KAP 150, King HSI and AI wanted to go with the dual G5/GFC500. From the looks of it, the GFC500 itself runs $6995, the optional electric pitch trim is additional ($$ unknown), dual G5s for $6000 (is that close enough?), and, since I have a GNS 430W, I might need the additional NAV interface they cite as required for "...select Garmin GPS or VHF radios." ($$ unknown). And all of this is before installation.
I see where they publish a $10,000 cost before installation for the 172 system, but I am questioning how that would apply to something like a Mooney. There is probably not an electric trim option, not the additional NAV I/F, and a single G5. I am thinking I should put a $20,000 or greater price tag on the Garmin upgrade with included installation and about the same in reserve for a KI300/KFC230 upgrade with funds for rebuilding some existing components.
Or, like Scott indicates above, I think I might just wait and see what Dynon, TruTrak and others roll out in the coming year.

That's assuming they don't put us all in the GFC600 bucket....


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[KSMooniac]

Garmin will put many planes in the GFC500 bucket, and fairly quickly. Otherwise they'll cede a large market to Trio and TruTrak.

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[N6758N]

  On 8/2/2017 at 2:37 PM, Oldguy said:

So let's say I, with my GNS430W, KAP 150, King HSI and AI wanted to go with the dual G5/GFC500. From the looks of it, the GFC500 itself runs $6995, the optional electric pitch trim is additional ($$ unknown), dual G5s for $6000 (is that close enough?), and, since I have a GNS 430W, I might need the additional NAV interface they cite as required for "...select Garmin GPS or VHF radios." ($$ unknown). And all of this is before installation.

 

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I attended the Garmin autopilot seminar at Oshkosh. I believe the optional pitch trim is $2,000 and the nav interface for hooking up to the 430/530 is $500. They also said the base price of the autopilot would be more than $7,000 for anything other than a C-172 or PA-128... I still think the TruTrak system is looking like the best and most affordable stand alone autopilot out there. 

[PTK]

  On 8/2/2017 at 2:05 PM, gsengle said:

 

And the way that is achieved is by keeping customers. To say that one is disappointed as some have done, with Garmin, for not fixing our king autopilot woes, is kinda silly.


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There are no King autopilot woes! I love my KFC150 and I don't like to be told to remove it. I will not do that. All I want to remove is the vacuum dependancy. Nothing more and nothing less. I suspect there's a large market segment who feels the same way. To ignore it was not the smartest decision Garmin made. Or the rest for them for that matter. BK is the only one who sees this apparently.

[smccray]

  On 8/2/2017 at 3:07 PM, N6758N said:

I attended the Garmin autopilot seminar at Oshkosh. I believe the optional pitch trim is $2,000 and the nav interface for hooking up to the 430/530 is $500. They also said the base price of the autopilot would be more than $7,000 for anything other than a C-172 or PA-128... I still think the TruTrak system is looking like the best and most affordable stand alone autopilot out there. 

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If Garmin starts driving pricing up on the GFC500 they're going to push people to other options.  I'd be willing to bet that Dynon isn't going to start changing pricing significantly- they've already come out and said that the equipment cost is exactly the same as the cost for experimental equipment plus the STC @ ~$2K.  

[N6758N]

  On 8/2/2017 at 3:23 PM, smccray said:

If Garmin starts driving pricing up on the GFC500 they're going to push people to other options.  I'd be willing to bet that Dynon isn't going to start changing pricing significantly- they've already come out and said that the equipment cost is exactly the same as the cost for experimental equipment plus the STC @ ~$2K.  

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I agree. The TruTrak is $5,000 for any airplane its certified for, plus a minimal $100 STC fee. My feeling from talking to Garmin is the GFC-500 will be closer to $10,000 for the M20...

[PTK]

  On 8/2/2017 at 2:01 PM, gsengle said:

 

It's not Garmin's responsibility to keep us happy with our king autopilots. To keep us operating at reasonable cost while selling us good upgrades and keeping us in their family. THATS KINGS JOB.


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And that's precisely what King is doing!

[N6758N]

  On 8/2/2017 at 3:31 PM, PTK said:

And that's precisely what King is doing!

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At 4 years and counting... want to take a bet it won't be available next month? 

[gsengle]

King is keeping us happy? By disallowing repair shops? By providing lousy and or vapor ware products? By pricing the replacement way above similar products?

Don't get me wrong I love the king autopilot. Just done with gyros. And heaven forbid it breaks...


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