Insurance

[chrixxer]

I'm still getting quotes, but my first quote (from AIM of Ohio) is for $1155/year for a $1,000,000/$100,000 policy, $45,000 hull value (1966 M20E with no upgrades; I can revise that amount as long as I provide notice within 30 days of any installation), and "the usual" other stuff (up to $50,000 medical, etc). When I had only 4 hours in an M20 I was going to have to get a ground and flight checkout with a CFI that met the "open pilot" requirements (below), but as of last night (6.7 hours; took an M20B from CNO to MYF for dinner and back with a CFI, because my rental checkout didn't include slowing / descending from cruise, and was all back in November, so I figured I should refresh before hopping in a new-to-me plane not made by Piper or Cirrus), my time in the Mooney is sufficient and I won't require any further "dual."

The "open pilot" requirements are: Private Pilot certificate or better with an instrument rating; 750 hours total time; and 150 hours retract, of which at least 25 are in a Mooney M20.

I'm a ~300 hour private pilot, instrument rated, with ~55 hours complex (and ~50 hours high performance), and I've had my PPL about 1 year, 6 months, and 24 days...

Seem about right? It's in line with what I was guesstimating, but this is my first rodeo, so...

Edit: No deductibles. And another insurance broker (the one who handles the local flight school and several friends' aircraft), still compiling quotes, tells me: "This type of aircraft tends to have a standard OPW across the market, with a few deviations here and there." (Are Mooneys that tricky?)

Edited May 4, 2017 by chrixxer

[carusoam]

They didn't mandate some transition training with that?

TT is a good idea because the traps are subtle and airship specific.  Best learned from a CFI familiar with...

Best regards,

-a-

[chrixxer]

14 minutes ago, carusoam said:

They didn't mandate some transition training with that?

TT is a good idea because the traps are subtle and airship specific.  Best learned from a CFI familiar with...

Best regards,

-a-

The first quote, when I had 4.0 hours in an M20B, required "Ground and Flight Checkout from a Properly Certificated Flight Instructor Pilot (who meets all of the minimum pilot requirements [750 TT, 150 retract, 25 in an M20], Prior to Sole Pilot In Command Operations."

The revised quote, after I logged another 2.7 with a CFI last night, omitted that requirement, and the broker wrote in on the cover sheet "No dual requirement since you have 6.7 in the make & model."

Which I'm fine with. I'm comfortable in an M20B and the M20E is the same airframe, similar (200HP IO-360 vs 180HP O-360) engine, same landing gear, hydraulic instead of mechanical flaps... And the logistics of arranging for a CFI with that specific set of requirements, especially to fly with me in the "E" which I'm picking up at an airport in the middle of nowhere ... It's just not feasible. I transition between different aircraft all the time (these days, mostly an Arrow II, Cirrus SR22 G2, and the Mooney M20B, with occasional straight-leg Cherokees, Archers, and Warriors thrown in).

 

 

[Hank]

That's what mine initially fell to after 3 years, when I finished Instruments (I bought my C with 62 hours in my logbook). Then I moved, and went from a local broker to Falcon, and now pay much less. Just got my renewal email reminder to dig through my logs and send in hours; my policy renews in July. My local broker was unable to do this in the seven years I paid him 20-30% higher premiums than I now pay Falcon . . . . 

I always used Cliff, but this came from someone else in Kerrville:  830-257-1000, www.falconinsurance.com

[Boilermonkey]

Similar to what I paid.

[chrixxer]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

That's what mine initially fell to after 3 years, when I finished Instruments (I bought my C with 62 hours in my logbook). Then I moved, and went from a local broker to Falcon, and now pay much less. Just got my renewal email reminder to dig through my logs and send in hours; my policy renews in July. My local broker was unable to do this in the seven years I paid him 20-30% higher premiums than I now pay Falcon . . . . 

I always used Cliff, but this came from someone else in Kerrville:  830-257-1000, www.falconinsurance.com

Requested a quote using their form, thanks! (No other broker has asked me runway length - which at KSMO is kind of an up-in-the-air question! - or surface material...)

[MB65E]

Did you go to the meeting last week at SMO? I have the 2 options on RW length they are pitching if you are interested. 

Your quote seams reasonable with your times on a 45k hull. I'm suprised there were not more requirements and that they are accepting the m20b time as M&M. I'd lock it up. 

Insurance companies are strange. My airplane partner with 3500hrs in a 340, needed 10 hrs in the M20E before they insured him for solo flight, and that was thru Falcon.  My dad coverage was bound on his $23k 41 Taylorcraft with out his tail wheel endorcment. However, they are requiring the CFI to have time in a 1941 BL-65. Not just any bc12d t-cart. Good luck finding that. I have about 10hrs in the airplane but lacking the CFI. My 500 hrs of tail wheel was not enough initially and required an hour in the airplane prior to me delivering it. Sounds like I need to finish my CFI. 

Anyone in the Midwest with a CFI and BL-65 t-cart time give me a call. I'll have dad lined out prior to his sign off. 

-Matt

[Bravoman]

14 hours ago, Hank said:

That's what mine initially fell to after 3 years, when I finished Instruments (I bought my C with 62 hours in my logbook). Then I moved, and went from a local broker to Falcon, and now pay much less. Just got my renewal email reminder to dig through my logs and send in hours; my policy renews in July. My local broker was unable to do this in the seven years I paid him 20-30% higher premiums than I now pay Falcon . . . . 

I always used Cliff, but this came from someone else in Kerrville:  830-257-1000, www.falconinsurance.com

 This raises the question that I have about the aviation market. As I understand it, all the brokers  shop the same market, and should theoretically receive the same quotations based upon the input provided to the carriers by the broker.  Accordingly, I am not understanding why there is a major variance between brokers if they are shopping the same carriers, which is obviously the case since there are only so many insurers providing this type of coverage. In other words, a quote for coverage by Starr or AIG should be the same notwithstanding  the broker requesting the quote.  For the past several years I have obtained  my coverage through Aviation  solutions  and have overall been happy with my premiums and service but since you don't know what you don't know, this year I will perhaps check out Falcon. 

Regards, Frank

[chrixxer]

10 hours ago, MB65E said:

Did you go to the meeting last week at SMO? I have the 2 options on RW length they are pitching if you are interested. 

Your quote seams reasonable with your times on a 45k hull. I'm suprised there were not more requirements and that they are accepting the m20b time as M&M. I'd lock it up. 

I was at the meeting, and I'm actually an SMAA board member and one of the attorneys working on SMO matters. I'm pretty up to speed.  (I was the one who called the NIMBYs racist and classist  )

There was a Brown Act complaint filed that has the pro and anti folks aligning, both think the consent decree was a bad outcome. If the City cures, the next vote could be 4-3 against, and then we're all back in court fighting... Also, neither runway proposal conforms with the FAA's requirements for runway safety (which AECOM may not be fully aware of), and Section VI of the Settlement Agreement requires adherence to all safety regs. Interesting times ahead.

I asked the brokers specifically about whether M20B time would count towards an M20E, and was told, "generally, yes."  In this case especially, it makes sense – the B and the E are the same airframe, the only real differences are the engine and mechanical versus hydraulic flaps.  There's much difference between various Cessna 172 incarnations, which are all technically the same make and model. 

Edit: The president of AIM of Ohio, when asked specifically about M20B vs E time, wrote:

All aircraft are different; however, with respect to the Mooney, usually M20 hours is sufficient for most underwriters.

Edited May 5, 2017 by chrixxer

[TheTurtle]

Hi from reddit

welcome aboard

[MB65E]

1 hour ago, chrixxer said:

I was at the meeting, and I'm actually an SMAA board member and one of the attorneys working on SMO matters. I'm pretty up to speed.  (I was the one who called the NIMBYs racist and classist  )

There was a Brown Act complaint filed that has the pro and anti folks aligning, both think the consent decree was a bad outcome. If the City cures, the next vote could be 4-3 against, and then we're all back in court fighting... Also, neither runway proposal conforms with the FAA's requirements for runway safety (which AECOM may not be fully aware of), and Section VI of the Settlement Agreement requires adherence to all safety regs. Interesting times ahead.

I asked the brokers specifically about whether M20B time would count towards an M20E, and was told, "generally, yes."  In this case especially, it makes sense – the B and the E are the same airframe, the only real differences are the engine and mechanical versus hydraulic flaps.  There's much difference between various Cessna 172 incarnations, which are all technically the same make and model. 

Edit: The president of AIM of Ohio, when asked specifically about M20B vs E time, wrote:

All aircraft are different; however, with respect to the Mooney, usually M20 hours is sufficient for most underwriters.

HA! Awesome! 

-Matt

[chrixxer]

Developing ... The local broker a friend insures through, that's also used by the flight school I rent from currently, came back with the same quote I got from AIM of Ohio, from the same underwriter (QBE).

Falcon came back with two quotes:

• $1,499, with a requirement: "Prior to acting as pilot in command of the aircraft during the policy period, any of the foregoing who have not logged 10 hours in this make and model aircraft must have satisfactorily completed a checkout from a Certified Flight Instructor in this make and model aircraft. This training must have occurred within the one year period immediately preceding the pilot's first flight as pilot in command of the aircraft during the policy period." (This was from Global Aerospace.)
• Starr Aviation, at $1553, "which does not require any training or checkout given [my] hours in the make and model."

So far, probably going to go with the local broker and QBE. Have one last broker I'm waiting to hear back from (they promise Monday).

[chrixxer]

3 hours ago, TheTurtle said:

Hi from reddit

welcome aboard

Glad to be here! You going to the Reddit AVX fly-in? We should corral as many Mooneys as we can

[gsxrpilot]

I went from M20C to M20K. Broker said M20 is M20.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I went from M20C to M20K. Broker said M20 is M20.

The broker must not be a reader here, Mooneys require super human piloting skills according to many.

Clarence

[kpaul]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

The broker must not be a reader here, Mooneys require super human piloting skills according to many.

Clarence

I thought was only the M20E...aren't those ones supposed to be Super?

[outermarker]

My insurance is also due soon and I have been asked to update my hours. I use the broker IOA Northeast, Inc, Hal Chavarry who has me with Starr Aviation. I also have my Luscombe with them. Too bad Mooney owners can't buy as a group rate.

[steingar]

Mine is going to be expensive indeed.  Ahh the joys of GA.

[Roger O]

13 minutes ago, outermarker said:

My insurance is also due soon and I have been asked to update my hours. I use the broker IOA Northeast, Inc, Hal Chavarry who has me with Starr Aviation. I also have my Luscombe with them. Too bad Mooney owners can't buy as a group rate.

Just asking, but does MAPA offer group insurance or at least an insurance company familiar with Mooneys? 

[carusoam]

If you are a USAA member, Falcon is a natural connection...

Falcon is in San Antonio, as is MAPA, as is USAA...

Falcon is a broker familiar with Mooneys and Mooney pilots.

Aviation insurance is usually accessed through the broker model.  When you call Falcon, they put your details together then shop the details to all the insurance companies.  In the end, They may give you one or a few to select from.

good service, as low cost as others, nice people to work with, pretty helpful when dealing with the other end  of the business (loss).

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 9, 2017 by carusoam

[Roger O]

Anthony, I am a USAA member (41 years worth!), but what do they have to do with Falcon?  The last time I insured a Mooney through them, it was direct.

[TCC]

Don't believe USAA has a third party relationship any longer for aircraft insurance. I know they used to.

[1964-M20E]

probably about right. 
Fly early and fly often the more you fly the cheaper the insurance is per hour.   The more hours you have the cheaper the insurance  will be next year.

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, Roger O said:

Just asking, but does MAPA offer group insurance or at least an insurance company familiar with Mooneys? 

Falcon offers a MAPA discount.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard TCC.

It's been a few years since I first bought insurance for a Mooney.  I called USAA, because they insured what little else I have...

when I go online (USAA has an app for that) to see how much I'm paying for What coverage and all that... they list the plane with the cars and the actual insurance company that has the policy.

USAA also has a nice bank.  Has great rates if you are buying a house.  Has an interesting store to buy stuff at.  They also handle basic investments with their brokerage house.  A good financial supplier for folks without an MBA or strong background in finance.

I lived in San Antonio for a couple of months while Dad was in the Army.  Got my first GA helicopter ride somewhere around age two...

Last, but not least, i spent a weekend in San Antonio buying an Ovation once.

The San Antonio area has a lot of genuine people.  Good to do business with.  

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 10, 2017 by carusoam