PIREPs and thoughts on N242HM

[Ben E.]

Hi Guys, does anyone know anything about this plane or have any thoughts about what you see: http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1457321/1990-mooney-m20j-mse

Thanks, Ben

[Ben E.]

I have attached a failed purchaser's prebuy showing some issues. 

N242HM estimate.pdf

[Raptor05121]

Going through that list, I would nix half of those items, especially the mags. The gear is a big thing, though. Looks like a nice airplane

[Vance Harral]

I don't know the airplane, but nothing on the list you attached looks like a show-stopper to me.

Agree with Alex you should further investigate the gear issues, but not sure I'd characterize them as a "big thing".  Shims, bearings, and rod ends are straightforward.  I'd need to know exactly how much the preload is out of spec before expressing an opinion on that - the factory-prescribed method of measuring preload tension via torque wrench and breaker-arm tools is prone to a lot of measurement variation. If you're going to repair the gear spring attach bracket, I'd consider installing new springs on both sides, which may bring the preload measurements back into spec anyway.  I'd also take a close look at the nose gear. The play the shop is proposing to fix with shims and oversize through bolts may in fact require a whole new steering horn (that was the case with our airplane when we started to get nosewheel shimmy).

The biggest question I'd have is, what is the complete list of stuff actually inspected on the pre-buy?  The attached report shows a bunch of easily fixable items, but doesn't say things like, "Inspected spars and spar caps for corrosion, looks good"; or "removed interior panels to inspect roll cage for corrosion, no issues found"; or "no evidence of decaying tank sealant found in gascolator screen"; or "borescoped all four cylinders, valves and cylinder walls look good".  A pre-buy which finds and offers to correct a bunch of minor issues is essentially worthless if the inspection overlooked all the major, expensive stuff.

Sure is a good-looking airplane with a nice panel.  If the bones are good, seems like a fair deal.

[MB65E]

Glad the list was published. A professional opinion on the airplane is better than anyone's rumors. Looks like a nice machine. I too didn't see anything alarming on the PPI. All standard stuff that gets neglected over the years. However, I'm convinced there are no deals in aviation anymore. 

-Matt 

[Marauder]

10 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

I don't know the airplane, but nothing on the list you attached looks like a show-stopper to me.

Agree with Alex you should further investigate the gear issues, but not sure I'd characterize them as a "big thing".  Shims, bearings, and rod ends are straightforward.  I'd need to know exactly how much the preload is out of spec before expressing an opinion on that - the factory-prescribed method of measuring preload tension via torque wrench and breaker-arm tools is prone to a lot of measurement variation. If you're going to repair the gear spring attach bracket, I'd consider installing new springs on both sides, which may bring the preload measurements back into spec anyway.  I'd also take a close look at the nose gear. The play the shop is proposing to fix with shims and oversize through bolts may in fact require a whole new steering horn (that was the case with our airplane when we started to get nosewheel shimmy).

The biggest question I'd have is, what is the complete list of stuff actually inspected on the pre-buy?  The attached report shows a bunch of easily fixable items, but doesn't say things like, "Inspected spars and spar caps for corrosion, looks good"; or "removed interior panels to inspect roll cage for corrosion, no issues found"; or "no evidence of decaying tank sealant found in gascolator screen"; or "borescoped all four cylinders, valves and cylinder walls look good".  A pre-buy which finds and offers to correct a bunch of minor issues is essentially worthless if the inspection overlooked all the major, expensive stuff.

Sure is a good-looking airplane with a nice panel.  If the bones are good, seems like a fair deal.

I would buy this plane with a slight reduction in price for some of the "need to do" stuff. I agree with Vance, there is no notation of the real Mooney killer item -- corrosion.

[Ben E.]

Thanks guys, I'm going to do more investigation regarding the corrosion since it has spent its life in SW Florida but the plane has always been hangared during that time so that's good. Regarding pulling a cylinder for borescoping, if that becomes an issue with the seller, do you think the fact that it was overhauled by Signature 3 years ago with brand new cylinders and has been flown 625 hours since then should significantly reduce the risk of cylinder corrosion? 

[Vance Harral]

I'm not advocating pulling a cylinder.  That would allow you to look at the cam and crank, but is major surgery and yes, the seller would probably object.  "Borescoping the engine" typically just means putting the scope in a spark plug hole and looking at the top half of the cylinder, above the piston.  With a good scope (even a $40 endoscope off amazon.com), you can see the cylinder walls and the valves.

All that said, if the engine was overhauled 3 years ago and has been flown 625 hours since, skipping borescoping altogether is probably not an unreasonable risk.  That's good, healthy exercise for the engine, and I agree it's unlikely (though not impossible) to have internal corrosion issues.  You could still borescope the cylinders to look for evidence of premature cylinder wall wear and/or exhaust valve problems, though.  The procedure is not really invasive or time-consuming.  The risk to the seller is just the possibility of a ham-fisted mechanic accidentally dropping a poorly-attached borescope mirror down in the cylinder.  That isn't catastrophic, since there are some tricks to retrieve such things, but it could happen.  Overall, your call.

[gsxrpilot]

My $0.02...

1. Talk to the A&P who did the pre-buy and ask him about corrosion, did he check, etc. Also ask about his overall impression of the plane, would he buy it, etc. (The pre-buy on my first Mooney was also $6K of small issues like this. But DMax told me to buy it anyway as it was a really good plane. I'm happy I did.)
2. Ask about oil analysis. Are there any from recent oil changes? If not, I might pay for an oil change and Blackstone analysis. It would only take a week to get the answers.  But analysis from the last two or three changes would be better.
3. IF the above all check out, I'd make an offer of $5K off the asking price to allow you to address the issues in the report. (6K - cost of pre-buy = 5K of repairs)
4. If I was the seller, I'd accept the offer assuming it was cash and we could close within a week.

I'd never agree to pulling of a jug. I'd allow an A&P to pull a spark plug and stick a borescope in the hole, but only if we'd agreed on a price, and I had a contract and deposit in hand.

Offer $130K cash. $10K deposit now with a contract to buy pending a favorable outcome of a borescope inspection through the spark plug holes of the engine. I'd take that deal.

[Ben E.]

Thanks for the input guys.  So this plane has been hangered all of its life, but since it has lived in SW Florida I still worry about corrosion.  I plan to have that checked if I move forward.  I don't really know what's normal and what's not, because I never owned a Mooney or any other plane.  I was hoping you guys could give me your opinion on whether anything in these pics looks like corrosion.

[bradp]

Ben the most important pictures to take in the wheel wheel is facing forward looking at that big hunk of metal that makes the front of the "box". That's the spar.


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[Danb]

Being recently painted will hide some sins

on the surface it looks like a nice plane, I'd have a few more items looked at as mentioned above, grab my checkbook and purchase.

finding a like new Mooney with quality avionics,new interior,new paint etc would cost $40g+, my opinion it's like buying an average bird for 90,000 then waiting six months and enormous funds to acquire a plane of this caliber.

stumbling on this one could be a mistake.  BUY

[markejackson02]

It looks to me like the inspection panel has been attached with pop rivets.  That would be a major no-no.

[Marcopolo]

I believe the panel pictured is the panel just outside the gear and it is usually where the Magnetic Azimuth Transmitter is located and it is usually revited as opposed to screwes.

 

Ron

[LANCECASPER]

13 minutes ago, Marcopolo said:

I believe the panel pictured is the panel just outside the gear and it is usually where the Magnetic Azimuth Transmitter is located and it is usually revited as opposed to screwes.

 

Ron

+1

[jetdriven]

I've seen a majority of the underwing access panels riveted in place. Someone told me the factory did it on later models to save cost 

Edited March 3, 2017 by jetdriven

[markejackson02]

Wow.  Interesting.  I can see saving the $5 in parts if you're making 1,000,000 units a year.

Learn something new every day.

[Ben E.]

Thanks for the help guys.  I'm going to see the plane in person on Sunday and will report back.  

[Vance Harral]

The paint nicks and dirt you're seeing on the gear trusses and in the wheel wells are very common.  Doesn't necessarily mean they're "OK", but not at all uncommon.  The trusses and gear wells in our airplane looked much, much worse the day we bought it.  14 years later, neither the gear nor the wing spars have fallen off.

The black streaks running out of those close-out panel rivets look "wet" to me.  If so, that may indicate the inside of the wing has been fogged with an anti-corrosion treatment, which is a good thing.

Don't confuse "inspection panels" which are designed to be removed for service and inspection with "closeout panels" which are only needed during manufacturing.  The latter are typically riveted closed.

For the person asking about external inspection panels with round-head screws, our airplane has those.  Picture attached below.

 

[jetdriven]

that filiform corrosion around the screw holes is concerning.  Where else is it. Because it can be all over and it starts to spread which means a lot do work every year treating it, and eventually a new paint job.  But this is a fresh job so what gives.  

[Ben E.]

I'm going to take a close look when in person. Is this something I should be able to spot or could it be hidden under the 2013 paint job?


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[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

The paint nicks and dirt you're seeing on the gear trusses and in the wheel wells are very common.  Doesn't necessarily mean they're "OK", but not at all uncommon.  The trusses and gear wells in our airplane looked much, much worse the day we bought it.  14 years later, neither the gear nor the wing spars have fallen off.

The black streaks running out of those close-out panel rivets look "wet" to me.  If so, that may indicate the inside of the wing has been fogged with an anti-corrosion treatment, which is a good thing.

Don't confuse "inspection panels" which are designed to be removed for service and inspection with "closeout panels" which are only needed during manufacturing.  The latter are typically riveted closed.

For the person asking about external inspection panels with round-head screws, our airplane has those.  Picture attached below.

 

That looks like an interesting way to raise a Mooney.

Clarence

[PTK]

21 hours ago, Ben E. said:

Thanks for the input guys.  So this plane has been hangered all of its life, but since it has lived in SW Florida I still worry about corrosion.  I plan to have that checked if I move forward.  I don't really know what's normal and what's not, because I never owned a Mooney or any other plane.  I was hoping you guys could give me your opinion on whether anything in these pics looks like corrosion.

 

 

Given the paint is only 3 years old and it has been hangared all its life, this corrosion is bothersome. I would need a real good explanation in order to be able to wrap my head around it and be satisfied. Is there hidden corrosion anywhere else? Maybe its a normal thing for a Florida airplane. I don't know. Is this what they mean when they say you can take the airplane out of Florida but you can't take Florida out of the airplane? Filiform corrosion does happen in high humidity and temperature. Or maybe its a case of a lower quality paint job. I don't know. But if I was looking at this I would be going through it with an extra fine tooth comb.

[bradp]

...or something corrosive was trapped under the paint and served as a midis. Think unwashed paint stripper or acid wash.


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[Ben E.]

Guys, I hope this is not too much to ask, but I was hoping you could comment on some of the issues in these pictures.  It would be very helpful to me because of my inexperience with these things, and hopefully it can help other people too when they're looking at potential planes.  Here are my questions by picture number:

1- what do you think the stain is on the top left of the photo and the crud on the aluminum strip on the bottom right

2 - is that rust or grease on the landing gear

3- what do you think the discoloration is?

4 - rust or grease?

5 - what is the discoloration around the screw heads?

6 - does the yellow streak left of and splotch right of the intercom jacks look like something serious?

7 - i can't tell if this is the same speed brake as before, but the same thing as before

8 - there are a few spots if you look closely.  corrosion or nicks?

9 - rust, grease, or dirt?

10 - why do you think there is globs of stuff on the trailing edge of the rudder?

11 - why would the rivets be sunken in that deep?