The Mooney 305 Rocket Conversion for Commuting?

[swt94025]

I am a complete noobie considering private aviation as an alternative to commercial flights from Eugene, OR to the San Francisco Bay Area.  I am considering the Mooney 305 Rocket because of its speed, seating capacity and matched range.  I am interested in hearing from other Mooney Rocket 305 owners out there if this makes sense.  In particular, I am interested in a deeper understanding of the cost-of-operation for this model as well as qualitative impressions.  The trip I would do is around 403 nm,  I welcome any comments on this idea, including how much flying experience I would need before it would be reasonable to start flying a plane like this.

 

Many Thanks,

Steve

[gsengle]

Please search for and read all threads pertaining to Samurai Husky. You will see your question debated and learn a great deal, especially about not knowing what you don't know.

Do you even have your PPL yet??

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[gsengle]

Start here - this thread generated like 350 posts... In a way similar starting query.

What should i get?

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.php?/topic/18208-What-should-i-get%3F&share_tid=18208&share_fid=55491&share_type=t

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[Yooper Rocketman]

1 hour ago, swt94025 said:

I am a complete noobie considering private aviation as an alternative to commercial flights from Eugene, OR to the San Francisco Bay Area.  I am considering the Mooney 305 Rocket because of its speed, seating capacity and matched range.  I am interested in hearing from other Mooney Rocket 305 owners out there if this makes sense.  In particular, I am interested in a deeper understanding of the cost-of-operation for this model as well as qualitative impressions.  The trip I would do is around 403 nm,  I welcome any comments on this idea, including how much flying experience I would need before it would be reasonable to start flying a plane like this.

 

Many Thanks,

Steve

I responded to your PM, but not with the thought that you were possibly a brand new GA pilot.  Your PP (private pilot) experience plays a serious part in how smart this venture would be.  This is NOT an air frame for a newly minted PP.

Tom

 

[carusoam]

It's a fun question.  Unfortunately, there is no airplane on earth that can bring a pilot from zero hours to commuting long distances in all types of weather in a short period of time.

It helps if you have lots of time to dedicate to training.

Then again, there are people that have done some more interesting things.

Get started training, consider buying a plane as you go along.  

There isn't going to be much money saved by training in an expensive high performance airplane.

Check what your insurance limitations are going to be and how expensive it will be.

It's not what you start that counts, it's what you finish...

PP advice only.  I am not a CFI.

Go get started!  Get to know a CFI, take a ride through the proposed commute as a lesson.

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry 5TJ]

I'll take the minority view that yes, you could start by buying a capable plane and flying your Eugene -- SF route while training. 

You should plan on training in parallel with your commute travel.  Find a mentor pilot and expect to fly with him/her for 150-200 hours, which is about 40 round trips.  I'm not counting hours of dual for PPL and Instrument rating, that's perhaps another 80-100 dual and the same solo to meet license requirements.  

At the end of all that you'll have 300-400 hours total time, considerable experience in traveling that route in your own plane, and could be well-prepared to fly in the Pacific Northwest.  

It won't be cheap.  300-400 hours in a well-equipped Mooney, a couple hundred hours of instructor costs plus expenses for mentor pilot.  $100K not counting cap ex of buying the plane may cover it.  Much of that amount may be a business expense.

have fun & fly safe!

 

 

 

 

[swt94025]

17 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

Please search for and read all threads pertaining to Samurai Husky. You will see your question debated and learn a great deal, especially about not knowing what you don't know.

 

Do you even have your PPL yet??

 

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I do not have my license yet, and I have been duly advised that I cannot learn in this plane.  In fact, I am interested in finding 2-3 other Eugene residents with a similar goal and doing a timeshare with the plane based around a common commute goal.  With just one occupant, the plane is a little more expensive than the least expensive commercial carrier, but with 3 or 4 it is dramatically less expensive (though I don't yet have a detailed cost-of-ownership model--with three people in the plane it is pretty clearly less).

Perhaps someone here can comment, but I understand that such a "commuter club" needs to have all of its members be licensed pilots and that everyone should be commuting for their own purposes.  This might be horrifying to the people on this message board, but I am actually more interested in the commute goals than actually flying the plane, so it would be totally acceptable to me to have my pilots license on a slower, safer plane, and then let someone else pilot the Rocket until my experience level is suitable to the task.  Is it sufficient that the people in such a club have their PPL, or does every member need to be qualified to fly the plane in question?

If you have any thoughts as to the feasibility of such an idea it would be appreciated.  I can think of many of the downsides with such a plan (weather causing scrubbed flights, a potential period in winter where it is impossible due to ice, etc), but I'm sure that many people in this group have explored much more seriously and might have thoughts.

So, the version of the plan I am considering is to purchase a fast plane, and sell shares to 3 other pilots who also want to commute between Eugene and the Bay Area, and then start acting as pilot when my experience level is appropriate.  

[swt94025]

5 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I'll take the minority view that yes, you could start by buying a capable plane and flying your Eugene -- SF route while training. 

You should plan on training in parallel with your commute travel.  Find a mentor pilot and expect to fly with him/her for 150-200 hours, which is about 40 round trips.  I'm not counting hours of dual for PPL and Instrument rating, that's perhaps another 80-100 dual and the same solo to meet license requirements.  

At the end of all that you'll have 300-400 hours total time, considerable experience in traveling that route in your own plane, and could be well-prepared to fly in the Pacific Northwest.  

It won't be cheap.  300-400 hours in a well-equipped Mooney, a couple hundred hours of instructor costs plus expenses for mentor pilot.  $100K not counting cap ex of buying the plane may cover it.  Much of that amount may be a business expense.

have fun & fly safe!

 

 

 

 

This is close to the idea I am considering, though in fact the "mentoring" relationship I am considering as a permanent arrangement-- a "Commute Club".  It would not break my heart if I never reached the point where I was the obvious choice to be the pilot.  From your estimate of costs, I calculate that you are estimating a cost-of-operation between $250 and $335 per hour of flying.  This is a little more than I was expecting-- I was estimating $200 before.  Do you (or anyone else) have a spreadsheet for this plane?

[gsengle]

1) I wouldn't narrow it to a 305 Rocket. As you'll learn as you gain experience, lots goes into the block time and dispatch rate other than the top speed.

2) What happens the non significant part of the time the weather isn't flyable? This is a piston single not a bizjet, so I personally wouldn't do that commute at night, or in icing (regardless of how you're equipped), or over widespread low IFR. Regardless of pilot skill.

3) at least 250 an hour sounds about right.

4) the odds of finding someone to be in a commute club are next to zero, so can you afford your own personal commercial pilot/instructor on a near full time basis?

5) what do you do when the planes alternator goes, or one of a hundred other squawks that take a day or two to fix, on business days...

6) get-there-itis is the #1 killer of GA pilots. Meaning when your need to make the flight (eg not miss an important meeting) trumps your judgement as a pilot.

Finally - tell us you read the other thread... You may not get all the good advice you should as people are probably still exhausted from that one.

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[carusoam]

Are all four people in the plane at the same time?  (Check the UL required for your partners)

have you ever commuted on a regular basis with four people in a car?  Would you want to do it in tight sports car or a full sized SUV?

Small planes are always a compromise of load, speed, and volume.

It is going to take some very like minded people, each with a chunk of spare change to make this plan work.

Also check on the legality of sharing the expenses.  Join AOPA to help with that.  You don't want to accidently do something against the rules.

I find the people that can afford the chunk of change that is required, don't work the same time schedule.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Those $ figures look about right to me for a FIKI turbocharged Rocket, not counting capital costs.  

Many on this forum will tell you they deliberately do not track costs closely: Best not to know if you don't have a strong business reason.

I flew that SF - Oregon route frequently in a P46T.  As gsengle said the weather in the NW is challenging at times.  

If you have the green and a compelling mission lease or buy a plane and hire a pro pilot.  A Meridian or Pilatus will do well on that route.  A dry lease in a Meridian will be around $600 per hour-just add fuel and pilot.  

 

 

 

[geoffb]

I've made that trip many, many times when I had an office in Corvallis and one in Livermore.  If you want to do this year-round, you will need a FIKI airplane.  You simply cannot get in and out of Willamette Valley reliably for much of the year with the MEAs and icing.  With the distance, the speed of a Rocket won't dramatically shorten your travel time over a 231/252.  I can do CVO to LVK in 3 hours flat with my E model.  You might do it in 2.5 with a Rocket.  A few minutes longer to Reid-Hillview if you need to be in the South Bay.

Also, as alluded to above, a Rocket is really a two person plane.

 

[gsengle]

Also - for legal dispatch in known icing - you need a FIKI airplane, not just one with TKS.  (and if you don't know what these things mean you're already far from ready to even think about this).  This limits the models you can buy. I don't believe a rocket is one of them.  You should probably be looking at Bravo's.

 

Greg

[swt94025]

Just now, gsengle said:

Also - for legal dispatch in known icing - you need a FIKI airplane, not just one with TKS.  (and if you don't know what these things mean you're already far from ready to even think about this).  This limits the models you can buy. I don't believe a rocket is one of them.  You should probably be looking at Bravo's.

 

Greg

Greg,

I was thinking of leaving the plane in the hangar during those times...  I don't think I have the risk tolerance for icing conditions even with the extra hardware.  I am asking around in Eugene to get a better idea of exactly how long that interval is.  The answer to that question might shut down the whole idea!

 

[gsengle]

The idea commute would be one where 1) going in is optional/telecommute, and/or 2) you have a reasonable backup (driving, flying commercial)

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[carusoam]

One of The fun parts of training for your PPL is learning how weather effects your life.  See how many lessons get cancelled until you have the skills that are required to handle them.

Fortunately with today's weather information, you can get a good picture of what is coming several days in advance.  Up to date storm information is available on cellular devices while you are on the ground.

Some pretty good weather info is also available while flying.  ADSB is worth looking up...

Best regards,

-a-

[geoffb]

24 minutes ago, swt94025 said:

Greg,

I was thinking of leaving the plane in the hangar during those times...  I don't think I have the risk tolerance for icing conditions even with the extra hardware.  I am asking around in Eugene to get a better idea of exactly how long that interval is.  The answer to that question might shut down the whole idea!

 

That interval is 9 months of the year.  This past weekend, you weren't making the leg from EUG to MFR without ice.

[Samurai Husky]

As that famously quoted person that started on the same tack as you did, This is what i have learned in my 3 months of GA and being on this forums. 

1. Get your PPL before you start looking at planes. You might be more than 6 months out before you even get your license. So why look now, you will just go nuts; You will be amazed on how many lessons are cancelled because of weather or rental maintenance or any number of factors. There was someone else on this forums that bought a plane and sat on it for a year before he could fly it.

2. As others have said, the Rocket is a great concept, but really you might as well look at a SR22G2 for about the same price. The difference is you will get FIKI, a parachute, same UL, and TAS of about 165knts at 15-16/gh. On the top end you can see 180's at full power and 23/gh You can use its little brother the SR20 as a trainer like I did. While i dont out right recommend learning in a SR20 as it will take considerably more time to learn in, it is doable and the cross training from a SR20 to a SR22 once done is like 2-3 hours.

3. Weather is no Joke. Landing with cross wind is very challenging for a new pilot, even now i have a 7kt XWC personal min on my 70ft wide runway. Also the bay area has a nasty marine layer that moves in and can sit around for weeks. Meaning with out IFR you might not be able to land here until past Noon when it burns off. There have been many accidents in the Livermore pass because people try to duck under the marine layer to land at Palo alto; Those hills are anywhere between 1000ft and 2800ft. If you have to be 500ft below the clouds and 1000ft above 'populated area' it means you need at least 1500ft of clearance, which means you are cutting grass if you are off.

Overall the Rocket is very interesting, purchase price is good, the performance is great, the running costs are pretty low, But I personally ruled it out after a lot of debating. I just didn't want to give up the UL and distance to gain an extra 20mins. Really 20 mins in the air is nothing like 20mins on the ground. I will take the extra 20mins in the air any day! Then tack on the number of hours needed to be safe and I just kinda gave up; You really dont understand the difference in 50knts until you experience it and then hit turbulence.

4. You can always move up later. Focus on getting something you can handle then worry about getting something else.  Landing a plane is hard; Landing a complex plane is harder. 

Personally right now Im looking for a J 82' and up or a SR22 NA. but until i am PPL its just looking.

 

[gsengle]

Samurai - gotten that Mooney ride yet?

Was looking at listings this one looked pretty nice to me...

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1434705/1990-mooney-m20j-mse

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[CaptainAB]

I love that paint job

[Danb]

2 hours ago, CaptainAB said:

I love that paint job

Yeah it's pretty cool

[aviatoreb]

Samurai, it is my observation that any FIKI Cirrus will be significantly more expensive to acquire and a little more expensive to operate.

[Samurai Husky]

@aviatoreb

I guess you need to define why you want FIKI. Its either you know you want to fly into it or you accidentally fly into it; The Stock TKS system is the latter, its good for something like 45mins of de-ice, enough time to either climb up or turn around and go home. 

The problem i see is that i have yet to see more then 1 Rocket for sale that had FIKI and it was up in the 200's; All of the other ones were simply TKS or nothing. Even TKS on a Mooney has been hard to come by. Adding it really isnt an option, adding TKS is something like 35k adding FIKI was something like 65k (dont quote me on that, its just what i have gleemed off of other website posts.).

Operating costs will be higher on the Cirrus; non turbo annuals will run about $2500 if nothing is really wrong, The turbo is about 4k. You have to fly disciplined in that you fly at 75% power or lower or you burn up cylinders faster. Up front costs will be a lot more because its simply a newer plane; Most of these planes are 2005 or newer. Where a Rocket you are looking at a plane that was built in the 80's up to the early 90's when the base model 'j' was discontinued and replaced by (someone step in, i think it was the ovation); You can trade the mainenance costs of the Mooney Landing Gear with the 10yr Parachute repack which runs 12-15k. I figure in 10yrs the re-rigging of the gear on the Mooney will cost about that.

Which brings me to the next point; If you are flying into FIKI then you will be super happy you have the Parachute, so when you look at the value of your life, acquisition costs are not as important.

In general its something I thought i would suggest since I started exactly where you are now and now have come full circle. I had the same mind set, buy something cheaper so my monthly payments would be lower, or if something doesnt work out then at least i can write off the loss. Now I more of the mind set of, what do i feel more comfortable flying. 

So why do i still consider a Mooney when I lay out everything for the Cirrus? Simple, a 'J' can be had for 100k and burns 9.5/gh at 150kts TAS. If oil suddenly blows up back to $100/b and Avgas goes up to $8/g, then that 9.5gh will mean a lot more than burning 12.5-14.

I have also considered the Ovation2; But the one that came up for sale that i was interested in just went under contract. I see the Ovation2 as a good comparison to the Cirrus SR22, I was leaning more towards the Sr22 because i already have the training in the 20, so its better as fresh ink to fly what you know and then move up; The Ovation would probably still be over my head for another 20-25 hours. The 22 i can walk right into and be good to go.

I dont want to walk into a plane where I can afford the payments, but then it sits on the ground because i cant put gas in the tanks.

AT everyone else:

Not yet... I was traveling for the last month; I literally did my solo work and was off again. I was going to ask during the weekend of the 4th, but then I got busy again. I just got back on Saturday and spent the weekend catching up on sleep. Today i had my first Check Ride Prep lesson; I did well enough that my instructor already put in for the club check ride. So we are getting close; I was told maybe 2 weeks...

Actually the 'J' i was looking at is the: http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1434603/1986-mooney-m20j

I like that it has no paint at all, means that there is nothing to hide, and i think based on the post the guy is saying that for the 90k he will include the paint job with my colors. So the hope would be to use toughGuard and do up an acclaim style paint job. 'Something' like this: though i dont like red, so maybe where the red is go with sliver, and where the silver is go with either a nice royal blue or red... Dont know; haven't really thought much about it other than the 15mins i spent googling paint jobs.

 

It only has 300hrs on the engine and when i calculated out the UL based on the logs i think it was up in the 900's; Like 945 or something like that. So really good on the UL

It also has no avionics, so i would probably redo the panel, but since it has no avionics i'm not paying up for them either.

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[carusoam]

Sam check your Maint. Numbers on the gear.  There is some related to the no back spring clutch.  And one or two people stung by the Plessey system.  The value you are quoting being similar to a chute repack would be annoying at a high level.

Go O1. Annual OPs check on the gear.  No additional Maint that I'm aware of.  One of these days my spring will be swapped out.

Go IO550!

Best regards,

-a-

[gsengle]

Don't confuse FIKI with having TKS...

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