Avionics upgrade opinion please

[helitim]

Finally pulled the trigger on a GTN 750 w Free Flight Ranger ADS-B to be installed in a few weeks.  Current panel is an old, yet reliable, KX 170B w glideslope and an old GX 60 GPS/Comm w a CDI.  Legal for GPS approach but no WAAS.  KT 76A transponder and a newer Garmn 340 audio panel.  My original thought was to keep the GX60 in the Comm 2 position and stack the 750 on top.  The transponder will be replaced by the Free Flight Ranger transponder.  The avionics shop says they can mount an iPad mini holder in the empty space above the co-pilot control that will WiFi from the Free Flight unit offering additional data.  Another pilot suggested maybe keeping the KX170 as the backup and selling the GX60 instead because of reliability issues and the fact that no parts or service is available for the GX60.  I have a parts unit with a good screen sitting in my hangar for the GX60 and a highly experienced repairman who is willing to service it if I have the available parts and he is still able to work.

My question is simply whether to stick with my original plan or switch to the KX 170 as my Comm 2?  This would give me dual glideslopes and I also have a second KX170 sitting in a drawer if the primary unit went TU.  I'm sure there are more expensive and better options but, this is my  dilemma at present.

Thank you, Tim

[stevesm20b]

I would keep the KX-170. Cheap, reliable and you have a backup. With the Ipad you really don't need an old outdated panel mounted GPS as a second GPS with the GTN-750.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Who says you need two comm radios in the panel?  

I would sell both KX170 radios - they should fetch about $250 each - and also sell the GX60.    

Route the second Comm antenna cable to a BNC panel connector and carry a handheld.   You will use the GTN750 for all radio communication normally and if needed pull out the handheld, hook it to an external antenna, and that's your backup. 

If you must have another comm in the panel, look at the Icom A220.  For what your used radios will sell for you can buy one of those, brand new.

Pull out all the old avionics wiring, too -- it is not just the KX170 that's 40 years old, those wires and connectors are old, too.

 

[Bob_Belville]

11 hours ago, stevesm20b said:

I would keep the KX-170. Cheap, reliable and you have a backup. With the Ipad you really don't need an old outdated panel mounted GPS as a second GPS with the GTN-750.

Agree. I kept a KX155 as #2 NAVCOM when I upgraded to a GTN 750. It's a reliable backup and I find it useful for ATIS etc. The KX155 is 10 watts vs. 7 watts for the KX170 but  either is easily serviceable. 

[capthaak]

We installed the GTN750 this spring and kept the KX170 as the second. It rarely gets used due to the monitor function of the 750. We also run an iPad mini with Foreflight, but I REALLY like the Garmin pilot app that you get for free for 3 months. It basically turns your iPad into another display for the 750 for traffic, wax, etc.

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[capthaak]

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[helitim]

Thank you for the responses.  Still not sure what I am going to do but it seems the consensus of opinion is to toss the GX60 and stay with a more reliable Nav/comm of choice.  I will call the shop and see if he has a KX155 laying around for trade.  

Tim

[Bob_Belville]

18 minutes ago, capthaak said:

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[Guest]

42 minutes ago, helitim said:

Thank you for the responses.  Still not sure what I am going to do but it seems the consensus of opinion is to toss the GX60 and stay with a more reliable Nav/comm of choice.  I will call the shop and see if he has a KX155 laying around for trade.  

Tim

If the GX60 is functional, I'd give it a home a a spare for my RV4

Clarence

[helitim]

The GX60 I have has about 200 hours since new.  Another story how that is accurate.  

Talked w the avionics shop this afternoon and he is suggesting another philosophy on making the decision.  He believes the current VOR/ILS navigation systems we currently use are short lived in US airspace subsequently rendering the idea of a secondary glideslope unit less valuable. He believes I would be better served to keep a secondary GPS/Comm (GX 60) unit as backup rather than a KX 170 or 155 Nav/Comm.  He suggested if reliability is my concern that I should consider something like a GNC225 as Comm 2 and only have one Nav head or possibly a handheld to the planes antenna as others have stated here.  Use the GPS WAAS capability of the 750 and have the KI 206 he is installing as a backup if needed.  Having flown some SPIFR in solid IMC, the idea of relying on a handheld is not reassuring sitting here on the couch so I can only wonder how uncomfortable it would feel in the soup.  At this point I believe the answer is to go with something like the 225 as well as have an extra antenna cable coiled up under the dash for my handheld if everything else went to black.  

Still not sure but feeling pretty good about the end product whichever way it goes.

Tim

[gsengle]

Disagree, ILS is not going away, and in an emergency you can divert to a runway with ILS, like anywhere served by air carriers.

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[JohnB]

13 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Disagree, ILS is not going away, and in an emergency you can divert to a runway with ILS, like anywhere served by air carriers.

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I agree that ILS is not going away. A must have if you plan on doing any actual IMC flying. ILS minimums are frequently lower and serve as a great backup if your gps signal loses integrity which can degrade anytime even on your approach.  If I'm doing an LPV approach somewhere on nav 1, I put the ILS approach into nav 2 so in case one degrades, looking down or up will still get you to minimums. I think your mechanic may have meant many VORs on less traveled routes are going away which is true.

Something like a Garmin GI- 106A course indicator is a great best of both, as you can switch back and forth from ILS to LPV with a button press, but having two indicators in actual IMC with different sources gives you immediate redundancy and is really comforting, allowing you to land even with a system failure. I think using a handheld in actual imc should be a last option in a dire emergency with no other vfr airport in range.

JB

[Jerry 5TJ]

 

One other argument for retaining the old Nav-com came from a 7,000 hour pilot who told me, "If I get rattled and forget all the knob-ology to run the 530 I know I can turn it off and fly an ILS with the KX155."  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marauder]

The GX60 I have has about 200 hours since new.  Another story how that is accurate.  

Talked w the avionics shop this afternoon and he is suggesting another philosophy on making the decision.  He believes the current VOR/ILS navigation systems we currently use are short lived in US airspace subsequently rendering the idea of a secondary glideslope unit less valuable. He believes I would be better served to keep a secondary GPS/Comm (GX 60) unit as backup rather than a KX 170 or 155 Nav/Comm.  He suggested if reliability is my concern that I should consider something like a GNC225 as Comm 2 and only have one Nav head or possibly a handheld to the planes antenna as others have stated here.  Use the GPS WAAS capability of the 750 and have the KI 206 he is installing as a backup if needed.  Having flown some SPIFR in solid IMC, the idea of relying on a handheld is not reassuring sitting here on the couch so I can only wonder how uncomfortable it would feel in the soup.  At this point I believe the answer is to go with something like the 225 as well as have an extra antenna cable coiled up under the dash for my handheld if everything else went to black.  

Still not sure but feeling pretty good about the end product whichever way it goes.

Tim

I went with the Garmin 255B as my replacement for an unreliable second Nav. I debated long and hard about dropping in a second GPS. At the end of the day a second GPS would have added another $8k - $10k and it still would be nothing more than a backup. With the availability of handheld and iPad GPS units, getting to somewhere with an ILS is less of a concern.

Now that I have the 255, it acts just like my old backup radio. It just sits there and is used on occasion. It is nice knowing that I have a reliable second comm capability.

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[Bob_Belville]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

 

One other argument for retaining the old Nav-com came from a 7,000 hour pilot who told me, "If I get rattled and forget all the knob-ology to run the 530 I know I can turn it off and fly an ILS with the KX155."  

That cuts both ways. I have about half those 7000 hours as a pilot and I fly and ILS so seldom that on a recent practice ILS I forgot that I needed to set the radial for the localizer - a step unnecessary on the GPS approaches I've been doing almost exclusively for 3-1/2 years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[helitim]

Marauder,

since you have the 255B, you have Nav also.  Do you not use the Nav side as a backup?  If not, why not?

thank you,

Tim 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, helitim said:

Marauder,

since you have the 255B, you have Nav also.  Do you not use the Nav side as a backup?  If not, why not?

thank you,

Tim 

Hey Tim. My airport is served only by a VOR approach and I do setup my plane to have the second Nav displayed. On my Aspen 2000 I have two HSIs (one on each unit). When I fly the approach I do leave one on the GPS overlay and have the second radio's VOR set up on the second HSI.

The same is true when I fly the ILS to a nearby airport. The difference is the horizontal and vertical indicators for the ILS show up on the Aspen PFD's AI and I set the second Aspen's HSI to track the ILS from the 255B's Nav side.

 

[helitim]

Aspen PFD is a significant difference. Thanks, Tim 

[1964-M20E]

keep 170 as a second NAV/COM with ILS you never know also it is nice to cross reference the two from tie to time.

You can always buy the TKM MX-170B NAV/COMM which is an economical slide in electronic replacement for the KX170.

[Pictreed]

I'm in a similar situation.  My KX 155 died and instead of buying another 155 to replace it, and risking it going bad too, I got the Garmin 255 so I'd have the other glide slope. 

He is also replacing all the old wires to the devices I'm installing until I do the complete overhaul.