Cost to install DME

[par]

Since I don't have want to spend the money to install a GPS, I would like to at least have DME in the cockpit for approaches. Since you must have DME to shoot many of the ILS/LOC approaches, it only makes sense to have it. My question is, how much can I expect to spend to add this capability? There are many DME devices on ebay for relatively cheap but the install costs could cause an issue. Any advice would be appreciated and if anyone is looking to sell their old stuff, I would definitely consider buying at the right price.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2016 by par

[jetdriven]

Id wag a guess you can get a KN62 for 1000$ on ebay and around 2K to install it.  Thats probably the cheapest route. 

[par]

29 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Id wag a guess you can get a KN62 for 1000$ on ebay and around 2K to install it.  Thats probably the cheapest route. 

I wonder if it makes better sense to go with an older GPS because some can be had for between $1000-$1500. I imagine the install cost will be similar to DME. 

[Mooneymite]

When I installed my 430, I removed an older Narco DME.  I miss it from time to time.  Having DME independent of your GPS box is probably a nice thing to have, so even if you plan to install GPS eventually, the DME might be a worthwhile investment if you can buy one "right".

[N601RX]

The best deal in a DME for approaches seems to be the KNS80 if you have room for it.  It also gives you a RNAV as well as glideslope/localizer/VOR.  IF you can find one being removed with the indicator and intact harness the install might not be to bad if you can find someone who will put it in. The indicator is the same type needed for a GPS so it is not a complete waste if you decide to put in a gps at some point.

You can usually find them in working as removed condition for a few hundred.

[jetdriven]

20 minutes ago, par said:

I wonder if it makes better sense to go with an older GPS because some can be had for between $1000-$1500. I imagine the install cost will be similar to DME. 

Legally, IIRC, to use a GPS in lieu of a DME it has to be an approach certified unit.  My VFR installation KLn-89B does fine but we also have an ancient KN61 to fulfill the legal requirement.  

[mooniac15u]

17 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Legally, IIRC, to use a GPS in lieu of a DME it has to be an approach certified unit.  My VFR installation KLn-89B does fine but we also have an ancient KN61 to fulfill the legal requirement.  

My KLN-89B was approach certified. Is it your installation that didn't get certified?

[smwash02]

Check out a nice used KNS-80. You can pick up one for sub $400 (I got my spare for $200) and a used CDI with OBS (if you ever go GPS later) for sub $500 or keep the CDI you have and use a switch.

This does a few things:

You get DME, LOC, ILS. You also get the ability to do RNAV (radial/DME from a VOR) and have 4 memory slots for quickly changing your current frequency.

I had one in my 150 and loved it. You can also go to DUATs and print out "RNAV" directions that will give you all the info to punch into the box and it'll take you there like you've got a GPS... without the subscription.

 

 

[Godfather]

I agree with 1rx the kns80 would be a great unit.  I'm not sure about the install cost but it might give you the ability to file direct as well.

[Jerry 5TJ]

The most labor-intensive part of a DME retrofit is installing the "channeling" wiring, especially if you want to channel to two Nav receivers.   (This channeling wiring permits the DME to tune itself to the DME channel associated with the VOR in your Nav radios.)    .  

If you buy a KN64, for example, and install it with just DC power and antenna wiring you can select the channel manually.  That will save a lot of hours.  It is more pilot workload intensive, of course:  After you set your VOR to (for example) 109.4 you must then select 109.4 on the DME using the front panel controls.  Not hard, just another step.   

You should route the DME audio out to your intercom/audio panel so you can ID the DME station via the Morse identifier.  If you ignore the audio, channeling and suppression lines, the simplest installation just needs dc power and antenna connections and no existing wiring needs to be touched.

Install the DME antenna as far as you reasonably can from the plane's transponder antenna.  Six or more feet should be enough, says the KN64 install manual.  

Used panel DME boxes with their trays and connectors are very inexpensive these days.  I suspect a resourceful CB could buy and install one for 1 AMU total (connecting power and antenna only).

As for utility -- I had a DME along with two WAAS 530s in my previous plane.  In 500 hours I don't recall using it "for real" even once.   Now and then I'd turn it on to see if it still worked.  There is ONE reason we had it aboard -- DME is (still) required above FL240, and that's where we cruised.  {FAR 91.205 paragraph 9 (3) covers this}

 

[RLCarter]

Can't remember which make/model but it is a stand alone DME (not paired) was installed in a buddies C172 for a grand, used unit, new antenna and labor. Works fine, GPS's can be installed multiple ways, VFR only, IFR Enroute, IFR Approach and I think there is another one as well, then the cost of keeping it up to date. On the cheap go DME and get an iPad.

 

[par]

Great advice all around. I think I'm going to go for a KNS80. I see one on sale for $700 with tray and connector. If I can keep the install cost at 1k, this will become reality.

 

just so I am understanding this correctly, I can use my current CDI's with this unit? Will this allow me to remove one of my current NAV radios as well?

Edited May 20, 2016 by par

[M20F]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

DME is (still) required above FL240, and that's where we cruised.  {FAR 91.205 paragraph 9 (3) covers this}

 

They changed this in 2009 or prior and it is 91.205(e) now.

 

[mike20papa]

I have both a KLN90B and a KNS80 in my A model.  It's fun to turn them both on and see just how accurate the old KNS80 is.  The KNS80 is so easy to use and I think drives the CDI more precisely.

[carusoam]

Accuracy vs. precision aside... Scalloped lines vs. direct magenta lines.

I love my DME and ADF.  But, they will go the first time a GTN gets mounted in the panel.

You have to do what you have to do.  But none of the old stuff is going to get WAAS approaches with vertical guidance.

The KLN90B is pretty cheap for IFR approaches. It is not WAAS so it's price is limited by all the old 430Ws on the market.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[steingar]

I despise spending thousands of dollars to install old avionics.  We have to do it, our airplanes aren't sufficiently valuable to support new avionics.  But by Odin I hate it.

[par]

Yea, I just can't bear the thought of putting in a 10K dollar GPS. That money would be much better spent on a engine OH IMO. The capability provided by the combination of an iPad and old school avionics is all I need. Keep in mind, the Harrier only had a TACAN/VOR/DME capability with a moving map and it works just fine. GPS would be great to have but I'd rather let someone else pay for it.

[capthaak]

Great advice all around. I think I'm going to go for a KNS80. I see one on sale for $700 with tray and connector. If I can keep the install cost at 1k, this will become reality.

 

just so I am understanding this correctly, I can use my current CDI's with this unit? Will this allow me to remove one of my current NAV radios as well?

$400. No CDI. I think you're going to need a King CDI, and they're way more!

[Bob - S50]

12 hours ago, par said:

Great advice all around. I think I'm going to go for a KNS80. I see one on sale for $700 with tray and connector. If I can keep the install cost at 1k, this will become reality.

 

just so I am understanding this correctly, I can use my current CDI's with this unit? Will this allow me to remove one of my current NAV radios as well?

Here is a quote from the Bennett Avionics website:

"Since the King KNS-80 contains an internal VOR/LOC Converter, it is designed to be used with indicators that do not include this converter, such as:

• King KI-206 GPS/VOR/LOC/Glideslope Indicator
• King KNI-520 GPS/VOR/LOC/Glideslope Indicator
• King KI-525/525A HSI (part of a KCS-55/55A system)"

So it depends on what your current CDI is.  However, I would personally prefer to have at least two nav radios.  One GPS and one VOR or two VOR's.  So it depends on how many nav radios you currently have.  We have a GPS (GTN650) and the KNS80 is our backup.  Whenever I fly an ILS, I tune both boxes to the ILS and check them against each other.  Having two also allows you do the required accuracy checks for IFR flight.  Tune them both to the same freq and make sure they indicate within 4 degrees of the same bearing to the VOR.  Document it someplace and you are good to go.

The KI-206's seem to be going for about $1200-$1400 on ebay.  The KNI-520's seem to be about $300-$600.  There is a KCS-55 system for sale for $1800.

[par]

I saw another one for $400 that includes the tray, connector/harness/antenna for less than $400. I want to keep 2 NAV radios so I will hold onto one of the two I already have. The only issue will be space for the 2nd NAV radio. The transponder is currently at the bottom on the stack but that can be easily moved to the open spot on the right side of the panel. I called a couple of shops and both pretty much said that without looking at the plane, they would have to ballpark 10-30 hours of labor, which seems like a lot to me. Hopefully I can find an independent IA because that will save me a lot of money.

On another note, is there an easy way to identify what type of CDI I already have? I don't recall seeing any manufacturing marks/model number on the CDI itself. I could justify spending some more for a KNI-520 as long as the install cost is reasonable.

[Yetti]

http://kx170b.com/ 

will tell you which king indicators you have.   The ones with the black bars on the sides of the windows are the older ones.

Both the KX170B and KX155 will feed a frequency to the DME, but they do it via different protocals

You feed audio to the audio panel for each of the units

While it seems high on the hours there is lots of pinning out of wires and you have to pull the whole dash to get back there.

What audio panel do you have. Might as well see if you can put a decent one those in at the same time.

 

 

[par]

So I just spoke with a shop and they said to first determine what DME was originally authorized for a 63c. I'm looking on Google to find this info but no luck so far. Also, my panel is not the original panel as it was updated in the 90's. What impact does this have on approved equipment? I'm sure whatever was originally approved is severely outdated by now and since I have all digital "modern" radios, the same should apply to DME.

It seems most places want 10-30hrs of labor to install the KNS80, which I can't justify. DME might be the only option for me as it will simplify the install since it does not have to link with a CDI and is more of a standalone device. The only question now is, which one is approved for use in my Mooney.

[Yetti]

my 75 F had a KN64 added to it by Major Modification form, Added to the Equipment list, and updated weight and balance.

[N601RX]

I doesn't need to be originally approved for your Mooney.  Anything that was originally approved for it in 63 is not going to be something you will want.  The KNS80 in my plane was approved by field approval. Based on their logic you could not upgrade anything.

[carusoam]

I think Bob was one of the first that showed, you can justify putting 50 AMU into a panel of an older plane.

There is a really nice Swiss M20C with an incredible IFR panel.

Its not justification that you need.  It is money.  The equipment is readily resellable.  Unfortunately, the installation cost is sunk and not retrievable. Get the lowest cost 430W and install it.

If your finances barely improve over the next few years, swap into a new AvIdyne IFD440.  It is nearly plug and play and light years ahead of the 430W.  Both allow for current WAAS GPS, VOR, ILS navigation.

All it takes is Money, no justification required.

Best regards,

-a-