I requested SVFR

[bradp]

And the tower pretty much had no idea what I was talking about.  

Background was that I was ferrying my aircraft from LNS to S37 (paint time), a 6 mm ride with no obstructions or terrain.  Ceilings have been hanging relatively low for the past couple of days and S37 has no instrument approach.  The visibility under the ceiling has been great. 

The flight essentially goes from one pattern to the next with about 1 min of cruise in between.  It is over open farmland, which I would consider not congested in terms of population, settlement, gathering, etc. for FAR purposes.   Given the scattered opinions as to what is considered congested and not by FAA, two dogs a cow and a pig could maybe be considered congested if the FAA wanted. However I wanted to have a minimum of between 1000 feet of air between myself and the ground should I become a glider over said farmland.  

 

Ceilings are reported at 1000'.  I thought hey great, I'll request SVFR to negate that 500 below requirement and nudge up under the cloud layer, which will give me the terrain / FAR and cloud separation requirement. S37 doesn't report weather... The next field that reports to the east is about 10nm NE and it's still reporting IFR.   So I'm not exactly sure what's down that way in terms of the weather.  I request SVFR with ground who replies the field is VFR.  I respond by trying to explain altitude and airspace requirements for VFR aircraft in Class D and E airspace and my objective with the request. The ground controller once again replied the field is VFR.  I was about ask for the tower phone number but said never mind to myself as it looked like the ceiling was lifting anyway.  By the time I taxied and ran up the ceiling was 1400 and by the time I took off it was 1500, so the exercise was moot in the end.   

However, this made me realize that the controllers are less frequently also pilots, and that they certainly don't know the FARs from a pilots perspective.  I've only considered SVFR one other time from N07 to CDW (also about 5nm apart), but the same thing happened where the ceilings lifted to VFR.  Have others had controllers fail to understand that there is a difference between the field being IFR or VFR and the legal limbo in which a pilot can find themselves with VFR conditions at the field but can't legally fly VFR?

BTW Erik I saw a 4-blade MT on a Bravo at the shop.  

-B

[PTK]

SVFR is requested when landing into or departing from a field that's IFR and shuts down the field until you land or exit the airspace. Even though at S37 E airspace begins at the surface, if LNS was VFR the controller sees no reason to issue SVFR. To put it another way, if the field was IFR with E at the surface like it is, he would give you a SVFR. But if field IFR with E at 700 AGL he probably would not. How does that sound Brad?

[bradp]

That was probably correct.  But staying 500 below a 1000-ft ceiling would put me in limbo in terms of whether the area is considered congested or not.  If not congested you can be 500-ft AGL and it all works out (legal but maybe not so smart).  If considered congested, then you need to fly at 1000-ft AGL so remaining VFR is impossible with a 1000-ft reported ceiling in that second circumstance.   

 

The languae of 91.157 (Special VFR) just references its own weather mins and requirements instead of those listed in 91.155, which define the VFR minimums we all know and love.  

 

So it's a little murky in the middle where the field can be reporting VFR but the pilot might not be able to maintain VFR.  And the the pilots ability to maintain cloud separation and flight visibility is what's referenced in 91.157, not the controllers view from the tower.   

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

BTW Erik I saw a 4-blade MT on a Bravo at the shop.  

-B

I'm tired of 4 blades.  I want 5.

[carusoam]

VFR charts show the FAA's opinion on population density.  The yellow shading around major cities stands out a bit.  No yellow shading is going to be found in cow country.  Does that help?

The challenge in our area with flying at 500' with a 1,000' ceiling in spring is the stability of the atmosphere can lead to challenges and rain cells can bring the ceiling much lower with crap for visibility.

The upside to this risk is you can always turn and head for home.  It's not that far away.

Being short on recent precision flying experience can lead to climbing into the clouds.  IFR experience/rating is good for this or declaring the E word is probable.  If this is outside your risk tolerance.  It is best to wait another day... Or bring an IR CFI that has had most of his day cancelled already.

A rainy flight is a good wash prep for painting...

PP ideas only.  I am not a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

How many blades are on a turbine's compressor section.....?   hmmm....

[Hank]

I thought the yellow on VFR charts was how the ground lights look at night, not population density.

seems I also read of a pilot hung out to dry when the FAA called a plowed field with three houses within a couple of miles "congested area," and busted him for flying less than 1000' agl.

I've only used SVFR once, to depart Class C under 900' ceilings with >10 mile visbility, when the clouds ended sharply just a few miles away. Only had to dodge two towers and one piece of R-space, but had no trouble with sharp eyes and G430W zoomed in close.

[Marauder]

7 hours ago, bradp said:

And the tower pretty much had no idea what I was talking about.  

Background was that I was ferrying my aircraft from LNS to S37 (paint time), a 6 mm ride with no obstructions or terrain.  Ceilings have been hanging relatively low for the past couple of days and S37 has no instrument approach.  The visibility under the ceiling has been great. 

The flight essentially goes from one pattern to the next with about 1 min of cruise in between.  It is over open farmland, which I would consider not congested in terms of population, settlement, gathering, etc. for FAR purposes.   Given the scattered opinions as to what is considered congested and not by FAA, two dogs a cow and a pig could maybe be considered congested if the FAA wanted. However I wanted to have a minimum of between 1000 feet of air between myself and the ground should I become a glider over said farmland.  

 

Ceilings are reported at 1000'.  I thought hey great, I'll request SVFR to negate that 500 below requirement and nudge up under the cloud layer, which will give me the terrain / FAR and cloud separation requirement. S37 doesn't report weather... The next field that reports to the east is about 10nm NE and it's still reporting IFR.   So I'm not exactly sure what's down that way in terms of the weather.  I request SVFR with ground who replies the field is VFR.  I respond by trying to explain altitude and airspace requirements for VFR aircraft in Class D and E airspace and my objective with the request. The ground controller once again replied the field is VFR.  I was about ask for the tower phone number but said never mind to myself as it looked like the ceiling was lifting anyway.  By the time I taxied and ran up the ceiling was 1400 and by the time I took off it was 1500, so the exercise was moot in the end.   

However, this made me realize that the controllers are less frequently also pilots, and that they certainly don't know the FARs from a pilots perspective.  I've only considered SVFR one other time from N07 to CDW (also about 5nm apart), but the same thing happened where the ceilings lifted to VFR.  Have others had controllers fail to understand that there is a difference between the field being IFR or VFR and the legal limbo in which a pilot can find themselves with VFR conditions at the field but can't legally fly VFR?

BTW Erik I saw a 4-blade MT on a Bravo at the shop.  

-B

Smoketown is my maintenance airport and as you know it doesn't have any approaches to it. When I was based there, Harrisburg would be working you, you tell them of your intent to go Special VFR and then go out and shoot the approach to 31 at KLNS, drop to the MDA and hope you see the runway at Smoketown. Otherwise, it is off to KLNS.

I never flew it the other way round. I think the reason you got what you did was because of the 1000' ceiling. If they called it 900', then it is IFR and they would have issued the Special VFR.

[Rmag]

1000 ft at KLNS is marginal VFR.  KLNS is 403' elevation.   1000 foot ceiling is approx 1400 MSL.  You would have to fly a max of 900' MSL to Smoketown (370' elevation).  You definitely wouldn't have 1000 feet of air between you and the ground but you would have had 500 so it was VFR, just barely...

Edited May 5, 2016 by Rmag

[MB65E]

I'll need to read it again, but if you are waiving a cloud clearance and visibility requirement with the SVFR in a take off or landing phase wouldn't the "congested area" be a mute point? 

In the LA basein, I guess controllers are used to the marine layer. I ask for a SVFR about 3-5 times a year.  The current IFR approach into SMO has the same 1000ft VFR mins currently. The city so far has refused to move an obstacle on the Missed approach. It makes it interesting. 

-Matt

[Jeff_S]

Seems like you're forgetting that Class G requirements are 1 mile visibility and clear of clouds. If your airport is Class D and says they are VFR, you are cleared to take off into their airspace. Once you leave that airspace you are Class G if you stay (generally) below 1200' and as you say, farm land is non-congested so 500' AGL is easily sufficient for the regs.  Perhaps you just over-thought this one. But it was good practice to at least consider when SVFR might apply.

[Mcoyne34]

I used to work at a class D control tower when I was in the military. If the field is VFR I'm not going to issue a SVFR bc my airspace will be shut down until you exit the airspace. 

[MB65E]

34, that's interesting. So it's not just a normal T/O clearance? I do remember being on a txp code, with spicific instructions. "Cleared thru class delta, maintain cloud clearance requirements report clear of class delta." But it sound like you are providing separation services. That's neat! I've never heard the other side on that one. 

Thanks for your service!

-Matt

[201er]

§91.119   Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

 

Says it all. A congested area is a city, town, or settlement. "Other than congested" is a sparsely populated area. But in your case, neither is relevant because "when necessary for takeoff or landing", none of these rules apply and you can be 50ft over people's heads on the beach with your prop

[chrisk]

I requested SVFR once.    It was a post maintenance flight (oil change) and I wanted to go around the pattern for a take off and landing.  Ceiling were around 1000 feet.  I called ground and told them what I wanted to do, and they said "The field is IFR.  Do you have another request?"  I responded with "How about Special VFR".  And they responded with "Bingo, taxi to the active!"

[mooniac15u]

I once had a tower ask me, "Do you want to request anything special?"

[Mcoyne34]

57 minutes ago, MB65E said:

34, that's interesting. So it's not just a normal T/O clearance? I do remember being on a txp code, with spicific instructions. "Cleared thru class delta, maintain cloud clearance requirements report clear of class delta." But it sound like you are providing separation services. That's neat! I've never heard the other side on that one. 

Thanks for your service!

-Matt

Controller should say "cleared to exit/enter/through (name) class D airspace maintain special VFR at or below (alt). 

 

When SVFR you are provided non-radar separation which typically delays IFR a/c. As a tower controller I would never issue SVFR unless I had absolutely nothing going on because I don't know what you need to do or where you need to go to stay clear of clouds. And it's my responsibility to keep you away from others. Helicopters are an exception to this rule. 

 

Looking for for the specific reference but can't find it right now, when I worked at a class D a SVFR would shut down the airspace. No one in or out until they were landed or leaving the airspace. 

[bradp]

On May 5, 2016 at 6:40 AM, Jeff_S said:

Seems like you're forgetting that Class G requirements are 1 mile visibility and clear of clouds. If your airport is Class D and says they are VFR, you are cleared to take off into their airspace. Once you leave that airspace you are Class G if you stay (generally) below 1200' and as you say, farm land is non-congested so 500' AGL is easily sufficient for the regs.  Perhaps you just over-thought this one. But it was good practice to at least consider when SVFR might apply.

In this case the airport is Class E surface area, and the overthinking really boiled down to the fact that I think that farms would be "non congested," but not really being totally sure.   The FAA uses the "well know it when we see it" dogma to refuse to actually define what congested is.  It's raeally open ended.  You won't find a definition of congested in the FARs or the AIM.  

 

So if it's non congested (which I think it is), you don't need SVFR with a 1000ft ceiling.  If congested you need a 1500ft ceiling or an SVFR clearance.  

[N601RX]

I think I remember seeing some enforcement actions that happened over a couple of houses on some farmland.  I would have considered sparsely populated, but they didn't.

[mooniac15u]

39 minutes ago, daver328 said:

I know exactly what SVFR is and the conditions to use it. My home airport is near mountainous terrain. Solid mountains to the north and a lone mountain adorned with towers to the south. IMHO just safer to shoot an approach. Since familiarity with the area and terrain is a prerequisite for SVFR (unless you're stupid) there's not a lot of other places I'll be requesting SVFR. 

Over twenty years ago when returning from a mission, Howard AFB (Panama) went IFR and I didn't want to go up with Panamanian controllers and get vectored out over the water for an ILS being low on fuel. Requested SVFR. Those turkeys denied my request. Air Force controllers, nice and safe and cool inside their building. Me out in weather, low on fuel, at the end of a long mission day. Yeah, I still have a score to settle. 

Requested and received SVFR once to get into home (towered class-C) airport flying a charter as a civilian a few years later ... Haven't used SVFR since. Why would you unless the conditions are exactly right? Safer to conduct an approach procedure IMHO. 

A non-instrument rated pilot might want to use SVFR. 

You can also use SVFR for departures. 

[jlunseth]

On May 5, 2016 at 9:43 AM, 201er said:

§91.119   Minimum safe altitudes: General.

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

 

Says it all. A congested area is a city, town, or settlement. "Other than congested" is a sparsely populated area. But in your case, neither is relevant because "when necessary for takeoff or landing", none of these rules apply and you can be 50ft over people's heads on the beach with your prop

N, n, n.  Be careful with that "necessary for takeoff or landing."  It is very narrowly construed in the FAA admin law decisions.  I read one a couple of years ago where the pilot took off normally but turned out early, going over hangars and cars.  The turnout was deemed "not necessary" for takeoff, and a suspension was issued.  

Yes, you can be 50 ft. over the heads of the people on the beach, if the beach is on the final approach path and 50 ft. is where you need to be to make a normal landing.  But the FAA would probably take issue with someone busting normal clearance to ground altitudes where not necessary because SVFR could be obtained, or an instrumeent approach could be used, or because it was just plain imprudent for the pilot to attempt to land at the airport because of conditions.  (c) is not a hall pass.