Pricing a plane. Add ons and take offs

[nels]

When shopping for a Mooney, what dollar value would you guys and gals add on for a Garmin 430 or 530? On the flip side what would you take away for a plane with a good engine but one past TBO? What year is the significant $ break point between early and late J models? I've been shopping and trying to get a feel for actual worth. Opinions and gut feels are appreciated.

Edited March 28, 2016 by nels

[ArtVandelay]

77 was a transition year for Js, 78 had higher Vge speed and push,pull controls.

there is two tools to evaluate mooneys, AOPA vref and if you get a mooneyflyer it has a link for a tool just for Mooneys 

[gsxrpilot]

The way I do it is to find the model you want, which appears to be a 78 and newer J model, and determine the lowest and highest asking prices.  I have a list of priorities that I'm looking for ordered by importance to me. On that list is a 500 to 1000 hour SMOH engine (subtract points for lower or higher time), also on that list is a moving map GPS such as 530/430 or better.  I then add or subtract points based on everything on my list. I'm assuming that the top priced example would have everything on my list and the lowest priced would have basically nothing on the list.

Now make an estimation of the worth of the plane based on the number of points versus the lowest or highest priced example.

[cnoe]

Also, trade-a-plane has a free online appraisal tool by NAAA for subscribers that has very detailed options and avionics sections. A run-through with my plane's specs was certainly in the ballpark. One thing not on there was though was a recent professional tank reseal or bladders. http://naaa.trade-a-plane.com/evaluator/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Hank]

The MAPA valuation articles began including G430/530 W as standard equipment around 2010-2011, so there is no "add on" for them; rather, there is a subtraction for not having them, unless something better is installed. Now that the 650/750 has been out for a while, my 430W may soon become a pricing liability . . . . 

[DonMuncy]

I think that buying a plane near, at or even beyond TBO is very smart. The price is already reduced by the cost of an overhaul (at least it better be). So any time you get before having to overhaul is free. And there is potentially quite a bit of time left in it. The downsides are that you have to be careful with oil changes, oil analysis and borescopes, and you may draw the short straw and need the overhaul quite soon. That leaves you with no airplane for a period of time, and the hidden costs of overhaul (ferrying the plane to the A&P, transportation costs for you, shipping costs for the engine or components, etc.) But that risk is likely to be overcome by having 1 or 5 years of free engine.

[nels]

Don and Hank

Don, what do you think the $ discount should be on a 2000 hour engine versus say a 400 hour engine? I say 400 as fresh overhauls scare me somewhat and would be skeptical of buying a plane with a new or somewhat recent OH. I visualize myself flying another 400 hrs in my career so even if the engine would last my flying career I need to consider the cash penalty involved when I sell. I'm just looking for ball park gut feel figures here? I'm figuring a fresh overhaul is possibly north of 20k?

Hank, interesting note concerning Garmin 430 and 530's being considered in base prices now. I didn't realize that. You have any idea how much discount is applied if the plane does not have one of these radios?

[jetdriven]

  On 3/28/2016 at 11:25 PM, cnoe said:

Also, trade-a-plane has a free online appraisal tool by NAAA for subscribers that has very detailed options and avionics sections. A run-through with my plane's specs was certainly in the ballpark. One thing not on there was though was a recent professional tank reseal or bladders. http://naaa.trade-a-plane.com/evaluator/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Same thing with altitude hold autopilot units. Even the lowly STEC 30ALT is a 11k unit, and although the book doesn't add real money for it, I'd give 2-3 more for one with it. Or a working century IiB. You may spend 8k getting it working. You want one that's already working.     Same with bladders , 13 grand laid in but no future leaks. I'm buying  

 

Anorher things, not all overhauls are the same.  You can spend 30k on a new limits, new cylinder overhaul from the factory (with roller cam) or Zephyr, or a 14k service limits job with old hoses, rusty engine mount, reground cam and lifters, 3rd run cylinders and a .009" undersized crank that will go  500-900 hours before it completely comes undone. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by jetdriven

[Godfather]

I'm guessing you could easily drop $30k for a good overhaul and 430w/530w install.  If the plane I was looking at needed these upgrades I would add $25k to the price and compare it to others in the same price range.

[DonMuncy]

As previously posted, overhaul cost vary a bunch. If I were doing it, I would think a run out engine should discount the plane by the midpoint between the most expensive replacement engine (Factory reman, etc.)  you can find and the cheapest OH. Remember, the ultimate answer will be whatever you can negotiate with the seller.

[amillet]

1996 & newer J models have the Ovation style interior.

[jetdriven]

  On 3/29/2016 at 2:39 AM, Godfather said:

I'm guessing you could easily drop $30k for a good overhaul and 430w/530w install.  If the plane I was looking at needed these upgrades I would add $25k to the price and compare it to others in the same price range.

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A factory oh on a 201 and all new hoses, redone engine mount, etc etc was right at 36k that was 2 years ago.  Does not include prop oh either. 

We shopped for a runout plane but they were at the most 15k less than the same plane with a low time engine. Couldn't find a deal.  Maybe because the blue book calls an overhaul 17k.  Idk but it's far higher than that if done right.  The shade tree overhauls don't last as long and are more trouble generally, from what I've seen. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by jetdriven

[Godfather]

I agree with jetdriven with regards to the cost.  With your mission...400 hours of flying...I'd look for a plane with 400-1100 hours since a recent overhaul and run with it.  If you were planning on another 2k hours I'd buy a run out one squeeze a few more out of it if sound (25 hr oil check/changes) and do a good quality overhaul.  

[Hank]

  On 3/29/2016 at 2:01 AM, nels said:

Don and Hank

Don, what do you think the $ discount should be on a 2000 hour engine versus say a 400 hour engine? I say 400 as fresh overhauls scare me somewhat and would be skeptical of buying a plane with a new or somewhat recent OH. I visualize myself flying another 400 hrs in my career so even if the engine would last my flying career I need to consider the cash penalty involved when I sell. I'm just looking for ball park gut feel figures here? I'm figuring a fresh overhaul is possibly north of 20k?

Hank, interesting note concerning Garmin 430 and 530's being considered in base prices now. I didn't realize that. You have any idea how much discount is applied if the plane does not have one of these radios?

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Nels--

Check here. There's a standard value for a given model and year, and variations in airframe and engine time on an hourly basis. Fewer hours are more valuable, but you also have to worry about the plane sitting and not being flown, which can cause both engine and electrical problems. This is one Mooney valuation tool, written and maintained by a respected, long-time Mooney broker:

http://www.themooneyflyer.com/tool.html

Happy shopping!

 

[Danb]

Based on the engine assumptions I would just ratably adjust the cost of the plane after the discount on the engine. If you expect it to cost $ 32000 divide by 2000(hours to overhaul) which is $ 16 per hour, so if the engine has 400 hours on it times $16 equals $6400, you have $25600 left to fund for the next 1600 hours. So I would use this analysis to drive my offer. Considering 1000 hours to be the mid point consider adding or subtracting the difference in hours from the cost. 

[NotarPilot]

What Danb said.

Just prorate the cost of the OH. And I agree with Don about cost. Personally I think $30k is a good figure to go off of for a decent overhaul.

[Marauder]

  On 3/29/2016 at 5:12 PM, Danb said:

Based on the engine assumptions I would just ratably adjust the cost of the plane after the discount on the engine. If you expect it to cost $ 32000 divide by 2000(hours to overhaul) which is $ 16 per hour, so if the engine has 400 hours on it times $16 equals $6400, you have $25600 left to fund for the next 1600 hours. So I would use this analysis to drive my offer. Considering 1000 hours to be the mid point consider adding or subtracting the difference in hours from the cost. 

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Every time our resident CPA writes something, I come away with that same nagging question, "Why did I take up such an expensive past time?!" There are just way too many "0s" in your answers Dan!

[Mooneymite]

You guys know way too much for your own good.  Take a lesson from our county tax assessor.  Even though he doesn't know a Cessna from a pontoon boat, he is an expert at placing values on airplanes.  This is the time of year when I find out that the lowly 'C' model I own is worth thousands more than I ever dreamed!

If you are depressed about how the used airplane market is in the toilet, or you want to impress prospective buyers, bring your airplane to Henry county, GA.  Your airplane valuation will put you on cloud 9....unless you have to pay taxes based on it.  

Edited March 29, 2016 by Mooneymite

[nels]

Thanks for all the input guys. I think I was on the right thought path but sometimes it helps to get other opinions. Hank, that was an interesting evaluation site. It sheds a lot of light on values.