Going to pull the interior

[bradp]

Hi all,

 

As soon as it warms up enough to be reasonably warm and/or I am willing to inhale propane fumes for a prolonged time, I'm going to pull the interior and do a few projects including:

1 - repair and repaint old interior Royalite, replace carpet and re-do arm rests and side leather. 

2 - 2 runs of RG 400 in anticipation of ADS-B upgrades 

3- pull old / unused wiring

4- pull old fiberglass - there is still some lurking and inspect tubular frame

5- if its as painful as I think it will be to pull the interior, I may replace the side windows then vs coming back later 

 

In terms of replacement foam, there's a number of kits available from spruce, etc.  The cheap bastard in me says why on earth would I pay ~ 0.9 AMU for some pre cut foam.  Spruce also have polyvinyl nitrile rubber foam as another alternative but this lacks the aluminized mylar backing that I would want to create a vapor barrier.

 

My question to the group is 1) has anyone used actual acoustic dampening foam in an install?  If so, what shape is best for the type of noise spectrum that our planes produce.  I liked the idea of trying to deaden as much sound as possible as I value my toddler's future hearing and can't get her to keep the headphones in or earplugs on for more than 5 minutes a go.  They go back in, but it's a struggle.  

I found a source here:

http://www.usafoam.com/acousticfoam/acousticfoam.html

The advantage seems to be that it has a fire resistance classification and has been burn tested (typically used in small enclosed spaces in California studios I suppose - so lots of regulation there).  Also available in both rolls and 1-foot squares.  Also unexpectedly cheap.  

The unknown is whether this type of has any propensity to retain water vapor.   It's gotta be better than that pink $hit that's still lurking in there.  Any opinions from the group?   

The same source also has what they call "gym foam" which is the same stuff that spruce sells minus the mylar wrapping.  Figure that may be an easy addition with contact spray and aluminum tape.  Plenty of instructables for aluminized mylar uses from the good folks of the "hydroponic" community.    

 

If I end up going this route, I'll post some details / pictures for the ultimate CB redo foam installation. 

 

Thanks and take care,

 

Brad

 

[Hank]

You're a brave man! I had to pull much of my interior as a new owner to run new cable for the WAAS update. It's cramped, hot and uncomfortable, and reinstalling the back seat will enlarge your vocabulary.

my vote would be to do the windows at the same time, pre-insulation. Someone here just reported the sound reduction results from doing this, search for it.

Good luck!

[Yetti]

Not that hard to pull the panels.  Couple of hours.  A $9.00 Harbor Freight electric screw driver helps. Rustoleum spray paint is holding up fine.  Just cleaned the velcro glue off and sprayed.

[helitim]

Brad,

can't help you too much on the sound deadening characteristics but, if you decide to replace any of the plastic panels I can offer some assistance since I just completed this task last week.  

Tim

[carusoam]

I gave my kids some ear protection that fit on their little heads.  They looked like headsets and said craftsman on the side. Available from Sears.  They are probably lighter and less confusing for the first time wearer than an actual headset.

I like that first time when somebody puts on a headset.  You talk to them, your voice is in their head differently then they experienced any time before...

My C had all the insulation stripped out and never put back.  Doing it right would require full coverage with really good seams. 

My O has really good insulation.  It stays toasty warm in the winter and stay pretty quiet as well.  See if you can match what the O has while you are working on your project.  Unfortunately, I have no idea what the O has for insulation...

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

This is the best insulation/sound deadening money can buy: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/soundex7.php?clickkey=23792

The 7/8" sheets are 36" x 48" and have a radiant barrier, dense insulation and then then black mat material sandwiched together. It is very lightweight, good temperature and sound barrier. I just finished doing the ceiling and baggage compartment of an M model with it. The rolls are $129 through aircraft spruce. I have brand new two rolls left if you are interested, $110 each shipped, otherwise I'll return it.

Edited February 17, 2016 by LANCECASPER

[bradp]

Well I did it.  Tubular structure looks good.  Phew.    

 

[rbridges]

How many hours of labor to remove the interior?

[PMcClure]

On February 16, 2016 at 10:29 PM, LANCECASPER said:

This is the best insulation/sound deadening money can buy: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/soundex7.php?clickkey=23792

The 7/8" sheets are 36" x 48" and have a radiant barrier, dense insulation and then then black mat material sandwiched together. It is very lightweight, good temperature and sound barrier. I just finished doing the ceiling and baggage compartment of an M model with it. The rolls are $129 through aircraft spruce. I have brand new two rolls left if you are interested, $110 each shipped, otherwise I'll return it.

I used this in my F. My partners were not bought into it so I did it all my self. Took about three days. I used active noise canceling headsets so the amount of sound reduction wasn't really worth the effort. I got a lot I told you so's. But when winter roller around, we all noticed how much less drafty things were and how much warmer the flight was. 

[bradp]

Took me a total of about 4-5 hrs of solid work.  This is to pull the panels and old insulation, vacuum up the little bits, pull old wiring.  I still need to clean the old adhesive up... Ready to get my MEK on.  Mooney put plastic backed fiberglass sheets in there (dumb idea IMO) as it can really trap moisture.  I knew that 208B hadn't been done on the plane when I bought it, but had the bottom tubes run with a magnet and had a panel or two pulled during prebuy, betting on the fact that it had been hangared in a dry climate for most of its life.  

My wife was a saint and climbed in the baggage compartment to get the headliner and hat rack panels out.  

If you still have old style insulation I'd highly recommend using a respirator and wearing long sleeves.  

Next stop stop is a couple of runs of RG400, a sync wire between the wing tips, and probably new side windows while we're at it.  I'm also going to pre-wire  for a FS210 while I'm at it  

The other design feature that seems bothersome is the fresh air plenum.  Of course the old vents are cracking and it seems like a pain to pull that whole thing down.  @jetdriven Byron did you replace your old vents some time back?    I wish you could pull them straight down but that's not in the cards.  

 

[carusoam]

I think Byron had posted some pictures with Tahoe vents.  Five steps up from the original Mooney design decades earlier.

Injection molding, thermoforming and 3D printing have come a long way since the 60's.  He also has posted some photos from the other end where the exterior intake scoop was swapped out for a newer version.  

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

I had my interior done last month.  It was worth every penny of the $3200.  All of the interior was removed, cleaned, and cracks repaired.  It was then painted.  The sound proofing material was already in there from my avionics upgrade a couple of years ago.  All the carpet was replaced.  Congratulations on doing the work yourself.  The way the new carpet was "serged" would not have been possible by a neophyte.

[Openwheeler3]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I had my interior done last month.  It was worth every penny of the $3200.  All of the interior was removed, cleaned, and cracks repaired.  It was then painted.  The sound proofing material was already in there from my avionics upgrade a couple of years ago.  All the carpet was replaced.  Congratulations on doing the work yourself.  The way the new carpet was "serged" would not have been possible by a neophyte.

Who did your interior?

[bradp]

Glad to hear it's a worthwhile project Don.   Trying to figure out whether to bring the carpet to an auto upholstery shop or get a pre cut kit from airtex or another vendor.  

[helitim]

One advantage of using Airtex, et al, is the material comes with all the required burn certifications.  Not sure how easy that is to get from an auto upholstery shop?

[M20F-1968]

I can attest to the Soundex insulation.  A link

17 hours ago, PMcClure said:

This is the best insulation/sound deadening money can buy: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/soundex7.php?clickkey=23792

is supplied to Aircraft Spruce in another post and quoted here.  It is lighter than most.  I used it between the windows and floor and in the baggage compartment.  It is just installed between the structural tubes.  It is not glued in.  I used fiberglass encapsulated in sealed bags in the roof (as it is very light) and it is held in place with aluminum tape.  You do not want to use the insulation that sticks to the skin.  Makes a mess and you can never inspect the airframe fully again.

John Breda

[Bob_Belville]

39 minutes ago, helitim said:

One advantage of using Airtex, et al, is the material comes with all the required burn certifications.  Not sure how easy that is to get from an auto upholstery shop?

I completely redid my interior a few years ago using the expertise and materials from an auto trim shop. I sent the leather, carpet, and headliner materials to Skandia where all materials passed flame spread easily.  "certified 14 CFR Part 23.853 and 23-49 app F (e) and certified by FAA DER" 

I believe modern automobile standards are higher than what is required under part 23.

I paid Skandia $135 in Dec. 2012 for certifying 5 tests. (3 materials, 2 of which had to be tested in both warp and weft.)

[bradp]

On July 3, 2016 at 3:14 PM, M20F-1968 said:

I can attest to the Soundex insulation.  A link

is supplied to Aircraft Spruce in another post and quoted here.  It is lighter than most.  I used it between the windows and floor and in the baggage compartment.  It is just installed between the structural tubes.  It is not glued in.  I used fiberglass encapsulated in sealed bags in the roof (as it is very light) and it is held in place with aluminum tape.  You do not want to use the insulation that sticks to the skin.  Makes a mess and you can never inspect the airframe fully again.

John Breda

I was really surprised how Mooney had used the insulation with plastic backing.  Creates a vapor trap in areas between the skin and the tubular.  

Happy that SB 208B is now officially complied with.  

Two questions came up:

1) does anyone know how many feet / yards of windlace to purchase for the front door va the baggage compartment?

2) The air vent / plenum. How is it attached to the roof.  Seems like there is a fwd and and an aft section separated by the longitudinal structure.  I haven't torn into it but it seems like it's bonded to the roof sheet metal by gasket maker and duct tape... This correct?  If it's riveted to anything that would be a non starter, but otherwise I'm willing to rip out the ceiling foam to get at / clean and remove the plenum.   I'd like to be able to remove the broken air vents and install whisper vents (there's another thread with a cool picture of it and some tahoe vents that Byron did). 

Thanks all!

 

-Brad

[Hank]

Hmmm . . . Attention memory cells . . .

1) I think the door takes 12' of wind lace, the baggage door a little less. It is frequently offered for sale in 12' pieces.

2) can't help you, I pulled mine back in 2007 and don't recall anything but a bazillion screws holding the whole interior together. Of course, your J is "modern" and apparently used "improved" manufacturing methods. I've seen photos of Js with the interior removed and the central plenum still up there. Mine had to come out for upgraded coax when converting the 430 to WAAS.

Good luck!

[Yetti]

When I looked at pulling mine it kind of looked like there were some rivets in play.  Could be wrong

[bradp]

Will require some more exploration, and a couple of tubes of RTV.  Ill let you all know what I find.    

[jetdriven]

The plenum is riveted to the roof with 1/8" diameter low profile Avex pop rivets. They are available at aircraft spruce. 

[bradp]

So with the brand new paint on it I decided I'm not going to risk disturbing / cracking the paint by drilling out pop rivets to gain access to the plenum.  Probably should have done that before new paint.  Oh well.  

So... I think I will do the following 

1- leave the plenum on 

2- break off the plastic vents 

3- disconnect the metal cut offs. 

4- add whisper vents to the overhead panel by the method @Brandontwalker  described.   

5- seal with silicone gaskets / grommets.  

 

Made a bunch of progress in clean and prep today.  Got all the old foam off with MEK a scraper and a wire brush.  Got years of grime out of the seat tracks.  Cleaned some minor surface corrosion as part of 208B (just got it back at annual this week).  

Next steps are:

- prime and paint tubular structure with zinc chromate.   

- Finish removing plastic fiberglass material from baggage compartment and hat rack. 

- re apply duct tape to all the areas it came off for inspection / cleaning   

- run a couple of runs of RG400 to the tail  

- run wire for a FS210

- run wire for sync between strobes

- install new side windows

- insert insulation

- install new carpet 

- repair old royalite and repaint 

 

Its a big and pretty slow moving project.  In the end it will be well worth it.  I get a lot of satisfaction cleaning all the old bits and restoring them to just so.  

If anyone has suggestions or comments I'm all ears.  

Thanks and take care 

brad 

 

[jetdriven]

If that's the one with the flat piece stuck on the plenum and small eyeball vents stuck on those I don't think it will flow much air.  The air is moving forwards quite fast but at low pressure.   Even with the Chevy Tahoe vents and even with them spaced out 3/4" from the ceiling, the air flow was adequate but it still wants to go forward.  A vent with 1/5th the area or less just won't deliver much air.  You can't turn the air 120 degrees or more in the space  given. The inlet side, back of the vent almost touches the cabin skin.  Spacing it out helps, but you still either need a dedicated hose to each wemac or a quote large vent to make it work 

I went from that to the later style fresh air system but it has many improvements from a modified F system.  The naca scoop.  The air distribution plenum that diverts the air to four individual smooth hoses that each have their own wemac vent, and it's the largest size they make.  I wouldn't have spent the 1500$ or whatever the parts cost and the 4 days labor to make it go if it wasn't worth it.  But  the Tahoe vent mod wasn't a bad compromise. I wanted to eliminate the roof scoop and get rid of the drag and noise. I did both.  

No scoop.  Thanks Testwest.  Your turn for paint   

 

Edited July 9, 2016 by jetdriven

[Brandontwalker]

On ‎7‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 4:15 PM, bradp said:

So with the brand new paint on it I decided I'm not going to risk disturbing / cracking the paint by drilling out pop rivets to gain access to the plenum.  Probably should have done that before new paint.  Oh well.  

So... I think I will do the following 

1- leave the plenum on 

2- break off the plastic vents 

3- disconnect the metal cut offs. 

4- add whisper vents to the overhead panel by the method @Brandontwalker  described.   

5- seal with silicone gaskets / grommets.  

 

Made a bunch of progress in clean and prep today.  Got all the old foam off with MEK a scraper and a wire brush.  Got years of grime out of the seat tracks.  Cleaned some minor surface corrosion as part of 208B (just got it back at annual this week).  

Next steps are:

- prime and paint tubular structure with zinc chromate.   

- Finish removing plastic fiberglass material from baggage compartment and hat rack. 

- re apply duct tape to all the areas it came off for inspection / cleaning   

- run a couple of runs of RG400 to the tail  

- run wire for a FS210

- run wire for sync between strobes

- install new side windows

- insert insulation

- install new carpet 

- repair old royalite and repaint 

 

Its a big and pretty slow moving project.  In the end it will be well worth it.  I get a lot of satisfaction cleaning all the old bits and restoring them to just so.  

If anyone has suggestions or comments I'm all ears.  

Thanks and take care 

brad 

 

For information purposes, I hear that a thick weather stripping from the aviation isle at Lowe's works well to seal up around the whisper vents.  There is a recessed ring on the plenum where the old vents sat.  Run the weather stripping in a circle around each of the 4 rings and it creates a perfect seal when sandwiched between the roof panel and plenum.  I was concerned that the airflow out of the whisper vents would not be sufficient, but was pleasantly surprised by the volume of air that comes through.  The directional control is an added plus.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Brandontwalker