Ramp checked...

[gsxrpilot]

First time for me... I got ramp checked by Homeland Security at LasCruces on Sunday.  I was stopping for fuel on the way home from the Formation Clinic in Yuma over the weekend. 

Two agents, not in uniform, I did ask for and check their ID. They asked to see Pilot Certificate, Medical, and Airplane Registration. They asked if I was carrying any contraband such as drugs or weapons. Of course I said "no" and then they asked to search the plane. I asked how long it was going to take and they said less then a couple of minutes. So I complied. They never got into the plane, just looked in through the baggage door. They asked to look in my duffel which was full of dirty clothes.  All in all the whole experience took less then 10 minutes and I was on my way.

[smwash02]

Thanks for sharing. Glad it all went well.

I'm on the fence over if I'd allow them to search the plane. AOPA suggest to decline, but don't interfere.

AOPA likes to collect data on ramp checks -- if you want to you can do so by calling 800-872-2672 or using the online reporting form (www.aopa.org/enforcementform).

[DonMuncy]

I, too, am on the fence about allowing a search. Generally I feel like I have nothing to hide and support authorities trying to deter criminal activity. On the other hand, if they stumbled onto something which I had not even considered a problem, and I wound up with a problem, I would never stop kicking myself for allowing a search that I could have easily and legally refused.  

[201er]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

First time for me... I got ramp checked by Homeland Security at LasCruces on Sunday.  I was stopping for fuel on the way home from the Formation Clinic in Yuma over the weekend. 

Two agents, not in uniform, I did ask for and check their ID. They asked to see Pilot Certificate, Medical, and Airplane Registration. They asked if I was carrying any contraband such as drugs or weapons. Of course I said "no" and then they asked to search the plane. I asked how long it was going to take and they said less then a couple of minutes. So I complied. They never got into the plane, just looked in through the baggage door. They asked to look in my duffel which was full of dirty clothes.  All in all the whole experience took less then 10 minutes and I was on my way.

Doesn't "ramp check" imply FAA? If I understand correctly, you were checked by customs?

[gsxrpilot]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

Doesn't "ramp check" imply FAA? If I understand correctly, you were checked by customs?

I was checked on the ramp by DHS (Dept. of Homeland Security). That's neither FAA nor Customs. But DHS is considered "law enforcement" and so I elected to go along with it.  

[chrisk]

Unless I was in an absolute hurry, I would decline the search. It has nothing to do with finding anything in the plane.

[kortopates]

I would suggest the time most likely to really consider declining an inspection is when you have passengers and you have no idea what they have in their bags. This happened to someone I know. He signed the general declaration form saying "no" to the various questions including they were not bringing in fruits/food. Incidentally whether or not you are asked to sign the declaration form when you state you have nothing to declare is at the option of the agent. Anyway, this pilot signed no, they inspected his plane which resulted in looking through his and his passenger bags and yes, they found an orange or something like it in his pax bag and the pilot got fined for declaring otherwise . His pax had forgotten but they didn't care.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, chrisk said:

Unless I was in an absolute hurry, I would decline the search. It has nothing to do with finding anything in the plane.

Agreed, but I was in a hurry and thought it was easier just to comply and move on. As it turned out it was.

[chrisk]

5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Agreed, but I was in a hurry and thought it was easier just to comply and move on. As it turned out it was.

I understand.  I don't blame you for submitting. We all make the right decisions for our self.   --But it doesn't change the facts that they are violating peoples rights.  This stuff has no place in a free country.  If I have time to be a pain in their A$$ I will.  That said, I would never physically stop them.  I'd decline and record their actions. 

[nels]

I think you did the right thing. If you said no it would possibly imply you had a reason other than your legal rights.they would assume you had stuff on the plane that you should not have had. They appeared cautious to me.

[GeorgePerry]

 

I'm speaking as a private citizen and aircraft owner here - not as an AOPA employee.  If FAA or other federal agency wants to check my documents, great, no problem, that's the law ( FAA Regulations 61.3(l) and 61.51(i)(1) ).

If CBP or DHS want to search my plane, the answer is no.  Without probable cause or a warrant, they have no right.  I spent two decades defending our constitutional freedoms and I'm not about to let a fed trample on them.

http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/News/All-News/2013/June/CBPGuidelinesKneeboard.pdf

CBPGuidelinesKneeboard.pdf

[Yetti]

Were they Customs and Border?  Had you been anywhere within 250 miles of the border?  If so the CBP is within their jurisdiction to ask questions. Google maps says Las Cruses is 34 miles from the border.  The CBP kind of has a right to inspect.  https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/176/~/cbp-search-authority

[smwash02]

Adding to Yetti's comments -- ACLU's 100 Mile Rule Information, ACLU PDF About the 100 Mile Rule

 

[Yetti]

235 miles is too far  50 miles is missing the "vital element"

[TWinter]

I think you did the right thing..There are going to be lots of opinions about "Rights and Freedom from Unwarranted Search" etc. Bottom line, you cooperated, they did their jobs and life went on without a hitch. Everybody went (and flew) home alive and well. The next plane they pick just might be a real domestic threat. Sure, you could have said, "No" arguing and questioning authority and your rights etc meanwhile, while you are debating your rights to unreasonable search the terrorist just taxied by with a plane full of contraband. With the way the terrorist threats are honing down on us, we have to try to exercise more understanding, much more than we did years ago.  As long as what they asked was reasonable and not overly intrusive I would probably cooperate as requested, much like you did. It seems like they had a very narrow scope of what they were looking for. No harm done.

Now, if they started busting balls over minor equipment infractions or documentation then my opinion changes.

 

-Tom

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

Were they Customs and Border?  Had you been anywhere within 250 miles of the border?  If so the CBP is within their jurisdiction to ask questions. Google maps says Las Cruses is 34 miles from the border.  The CBP kind of has a right to inspect.  https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/176/~/cbp-search-authority

I'd been very close to the boarder the whole weekend. After one of the formation flights along the boarder, I had a message from ATT on my phone welcoming me to Mexico and offering me a cheaper data plan :-)  So yeah, I had to turn away from the boarder to get to LasCruces.

[Raptor05121]

Did they pull up or what? Seems like they might have been following you on radar

[M20F]

5 hours ago, chrisk said:

I understand.  I don't blame you for submitting. We all make the right decisions for our self.   --But it doesn't change the facts that they are violating peoples rights.  This stuff has no place in a free country.  If I have time to be a pain in their A$$ I will.  That said, I would never physically stop them.  I'd decline and record their actions. 

Nobody's rights were violated.  They asked (didn't force) to inspect and he agreed, he was within his rights to decline because it is a free country but chose not to.

[Yetti]

26 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

Did they pull up or what? Seems like they might have been following you on radar

Yes they are watching. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Paso_Intelligence_Center

 

[aaronk25]

I'd tell them to go pound sand unless they have proper paper work justifying the search.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carqwik]

Let's not forget that the Bill of Rights was prerequisite for the the states to agree to a stronger central government.  Among those rights, protection from unreasonable search and seizure (Amendment #4).  It is a slippery slope to pass on protecting those rights...

[MyNameIsNobody]

They are going to get some practice on obtaining a warrant and being videoed with a phone if/when this occurs to me...

[MyNameIsNobody]

3 hours ago, TWinter said:

I think you did the right thing..There are going to be lots of opinions about "Rights and Freedom from Unwarranted Search" etc. Bottom line, you cooperated, they did their jobs and life went on without a hitch. Everybody went (and flew) home alive and well. The next plane they pick just might be a real domestic threat. Sure, you could have said, "No" arguing and questioning authority and your rights etc meanwhile, while you are debating your rights to unreasonable search the terrorist just taxied by with a plane full of contraband. With the way the terrorist threats are honing down on us, we have to try to exercise more understanding, much more than we did years ago.  As long as what they asked was reasonable and not overly intrusive I would probably cooperate as requested, much like you did. It seems like they had a very narrow scope of what they were looking for. No harm done.

Now, if they started busting balls over minor equipment infractions or documentation then my opinion changes.

 

-Tom

I don't.  See other thread regarding opinions...

[Shadrach]

45 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Yes they are watching. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Paso_Intelligence_Center

 

• Edit
• Watch this page

El Paso Intelligence Center

This article is about the El Paso Intelligence Center . For other meanings of EPIC, see EPIC (disambiguation).

The El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC) was established in 1974 in response to a study by the Justice Management Divisionof the U.S. Department of Justice entitled, "A Secure Border." Recommendation number 7 of this study suggested the establishment of a southwest border intelligence center... 

 

Ha Ha ha ha....sigh.

[cujet]

Just remember, you have nothing to gain by allowing a search. All you've done is introduce significant risk. However, you have much to lose, including your aircraft. A recent case with a King Air clearly illustrates this. DHS confiscated the aircraft, charged the pilot with nothing and it took eon's to get the aircraft returned to the owner.

We regularly fly to the shooting range. Carrying weapons, all properly stored and 100% legal. That's another unneeded hassle with likely confiscation.