Considering buying an M20C (first airplane)

[AlexLev]

Hi all!

Have really enjoyed reading some of the posts in this community and appreciate you being here. I'm considering buying my first airplane. I just got my PPL in May but have already put over 100 hours on it since May (260hours TT or so) flying XCs in an Archer (through a flying club) and would love to have something like a 20C to make those long XCs a bit more fun. I'm not IFR yet, but have started the process and will hopefully finish up by early Spring.

An M20C seems to fit my mission, so does a Cardinal RG. I would prefer to go at this with a partner. It just so happened that I found a 20C hangared locally that is for sale. It is a 1966 and I'm going to take a look at it this weekend. I've sat in a 20C, but never flown in one yet.

I mentioned to the owner that I'm more interested in buying half of an airplane, he's had it for about 10 years and he says his average annual is about $2200 and he's just flying it less and less to justify ownership (but still about 50-75hrs/year).

He mentioned he will think about my offer to buy 50% of the airplane and share it with him. This particular plane has a high time engine (2500 hrs SMOH) and he mentioned that my buy in for the airplane could be overhauling the engine. Although, why overhaul the engine if it's not making metal and doing well at 2500 SMOH? What do you think about that?

Anyway - I'm not too mechanically inclined, so I'm afraid of ownership on my own, but would ideally like to find a partner so I could learn more, but bearing the entire responsibility of maintaining an aircraft seems a little cumbersome to me at this point in my life. Anyway some specific questions:

* Any suggestions on where to go for a prebuy near Buffalo, NY (east coast -- I saw the ultimate recommendation was TX but not sure it's feasible to fly it there for the prebuy).
* This is very variable, how far would 10k per year get me with aircraft ownership in a 20C?
* 3-bladed prop vs 2-bladed. This one is a 3-bladed. I'm not too sure on what the positives / negative on each. I'll do some searching and look though, so you fine people don't have to repost what's probably been said many times :P.
* Any other words of wisdom are appreciated! I think I'm too excited and need to take a breather, implore some patience and take my time.

Thanks!
 

 

[Raptor05121]

Alex, welcome. You sound like a carbon copy of me. I am 24, just got licensed in May, and have about 100 hours. I just bought a M20D (carbon copy of the M20C) and mine has the three blade. Basically, the 3 blades have shorter takeoff, better climb, but lose a knot or two in cruise. You also lose about 40lbs useful and extra weight on the nose, but these birds aren't as susceptible to CG issues like the Pipers.

My hangar neighbor has a Cardinal RG with a fuel injected angle-valve IO-360 200hp and his does the same speed (albeit with another 3gph), but then again his cabin is MASSIVE compared to the Mooney. But my mission is me and the missus (wire-framed) so size isnt an issue. Also, the fuel-injected angle-valves are expensive if you need to replace a cylinder. The M20C is the epitome of used aircraft efficiency. You won't go wrong.

As for the SMOH, I know a guy working 3,800 SMOH on his O-320. If its not making metal, oil samples are good, compressions are good, etc I say keep saving until you notice a drastic change. If you want to know more, go on Amazon and download a book by Kas Thomas called "Fly the Engine". You will learn more about engine management than you care to know.

-Alex (I'll be #1, you can be #2)

[Hank]

Welcome, Alex2!

An M20C can be a great first plane. You already have more hours than I did when I bought mine, half to start with like you are planning. You'll love the speed and efficiency, just be prepared that you don't sit high like in the Archer.

 Nothing wrong with a 3-blade. I get book speed with mine . . .

[smwash02]

I started with a 150 and moved into my '66 C.

I also debated the 177RG, but my mission is 2 people and baggage versus a solid 4 seater so the M20C's economic perks won me over. Additionally, I wanted the mechanical gear. The extra space is appealing sometimes, but not enough that I have thoughts of trading for the 177RG -- but rather an F or J if it came to it.

I own my M20C outright and have been doing upgrades here and there which have pushed me past 10k/year, slightly. but if your plane is in reasonable shape 10k/yr for plane+insurance+fuel will give you more than 100 hours a year without issue... depending on your storage costs. If you're going to have to drop 450/month for a hangar, the game changes a bit. If I was only oil/gas/repair program I'd be just under 10k for fuel/oil/storage/annual/insurance/loan all included at 100 hours a year. It's a VERY economic aircraft if it's maintained in real time instead of playing catch up.

Part of what keeps my Mooney cost effective is that I do 99% of the labor myself under my IA's supervision. It might also be something to consider.

[M20F]

Make sure the person you are partnering with has the same ideas as you and you have a good clear system for expenses, upgrades, etc.  Partnerships can be tricky things. 

[ryoder]

I like my C and bought it with 75 hours of experience.  I also have a 2500 hour SNEW engine and it runs fine.  I put over 130 hours on it and it runs better than when I first bought it since I know how to operate it and it has new fine wire plugs.  The leather seats and new interior also make it run better.

[AlexLev]

21 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Ryan -- what year C do you have? Is the best way to protect against the corrosion demon by getting a good prebuy? Is it something that can just claim the life of an older Mooney anytime?

 

[Raptor05121]

I think you FUBAR'ed that edit, lol.

 

[rbuck]

Welcome Alex,

I also purchased a C model as my first plane, and I had about 160 total hours when I purchased it. I am the sole owner of my plane, and in the past 2.5 years I've added to that number quite a bit. It's been a great first plane (though it took a little bit to get used to-it goes a lot faster in the pattern than the 172s and Cherokees that I was flying). 

I don't know of a good pre-buy location near Buffalo, but I would make sure that you go through a reputable source. I am also not sure if the pre-buy process is any different for a partnership. That's the kind of thing that one of the old pros like Hank can answer. I have heard a number of stories, though, of pilots (of any type of aircraft) thinking they were getting a better operating machine than they actually did. Most folks on this site will recommend a Mooney Service Center. (You can find MSC locations on the Mooney Aircraft site under Support.) 

I agree with smwash02. If you keep your plane maintained well, it is an economical plane. I think 10K will get you quite a bit of use per year. I spent more than that on my first year, but have been significantly under in the past year and a half. 

I have a 2-blade prop. To be honest, I haven't been in a 3-blade C, but I know it makes the nose a little heavier. That shouldn't be a big deal, though. 

If you're looking to keep flying expenses under 10K, I think that a Mooney will help you do that better than a Cardinal RG. (I'm not biased, of course, at all.) You'll save quite a bit of money on just gas in the long run. Plus, a Mooney just looks better. 

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Alex2,

The partner thing sounds pretty good. Especially if he flies during the week and you fly weekends only.

He supplies the plane, you supply the OH. Pre-purchase inspection, and legal agreements are probably still required for your protection.

Not being mechanically inclined, usually makes a 2500hr SMOH engine an uncomfortable situation. Things like starters, generators and voltage controllers are not that complex but they die.

I started with an ancient M20C and replaced many of these parts over a ten year period.  Hank's C looks brand new compared to my old C.

Read as much as you can here, ask some more questions. Buy a plane and train in it.

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

A good friend of mine has a Cardinal RG. I fly a C. On a recent flight of 130nm, my C was 20kts faster on the same fuel burn. In other news, the next time we were to fly together, he had to scrub because of gear issues. This seems to be a recurring issue on the Cardinal. The manual gear on my C is bullet proof.  

Just an observation.

[Andy95W]

25 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

A good friend of mine has a Cardinal RG.

Friends don't let friends fly Cardinal RGs.

[bonal]

Hello Alex, my thought on this were it me would be not to buy into a high time engine it's no gauranty that it's going to fail any more than a low time is going to run for a long time however an OH would likely cost more than the total value of that airplane. If the current owner would agree to some kind of percentage share of the new engine then that might make sense. Personally I like having total control over what happens with my airplane so partners are not for me. I understand the desire to find an airplane that is right there at your home field. Tale a step back and do some shopping there are lots of good C models that are selling for what an OH might cost you. Whatever you decide to do congrats on getting your license and best wishes for all your aviation endeavors. 

[Sabremech]

Hi Alex,

The C model is probably the best bang for the buck. We purchased our 66 C in 2010 and have taken it on cross country trips from Wisconsin to Texas and back. I consider mine a two seater with an excellent baggage load as most of my flying is just my wife and I. Good luck on your search.

David

[AlexLev]

Thanks for all the great replies so far. Lot's of great information and things to look for. For those curious, here are the specific specs for this airplane:

TT ~ 4800

Avionics: S-Tec 60-2 with altitude hold and glideslope lock
WX 900 Stormscope (BF Goodrich)
JP Instruments FS-450 Fuel Mgmt. System
Narco MK 12D-IS0 Nav/Com
MX 170C Nav/Com w/ glide slope
Narco DME 890
TR661A Bendix Transponder with Alt. Encoder
Edo-Aire R556 ADF receiver and indicator (inoperative)
Three light marker beacon system
Electric Vertical Compass

Airframe: 2 owners since new - "CLEAN WING STYLE"
Always Hangered - 201 Paint scheme is a "7-8"
All applicable ADs and SBs for Engine & Airframe satisfied as of
12/14 (including new aileron control links by Lake Aero Styling).
3-Blade Hartzell Prop. w/ polished spinner.
Lycoming Engine: Clydesdale (O-360-A1D) 180 hp (Engine TT 4395 ~ 2400SMOH)
Oil Filter Kit System
Reiff Heater Cylinder Ban
Misc: Fuel Tank Bladders by O&N (54.4 gal. sys.)
Cloth interior (Grey) - a "8-9"
Manual gear and flaps (so simple)
Vacuum Pump
Standby Vacuum System SVS3 Precise Flight
50 Amp Alcore Alternator Kit
Whalen Strobe
Good Tires. wheel bearings, brakes & Hoses
New ELT Battery & Starter (2014)

No asking price. I talked to owner on the phone and he seemed like a stand up guy for the 30 minuets we talked on the phone, going to meet him this Saturday at a local airfield to take a look at the airplane. If we can work out a partnership where I help overhaul the engine in exchange for 50% of the airplane, I would definitely consider that and can pay cash, but yeah I understand partnerships can be tricky and this will be a process of getting to know this guy a bit better and taking time to do a thorough prebuy on the airplane as well.

Lancaster, PA service center came recommended to me which I could fly to. The closest authorized Mooney Service Center to me is http://www.chautaircraft.com/default.htm

Anyone have any experience with them?

[Raptor05121]

This sounds like it might be good for you. He gets a new engine, you get an airplane. 50/50, you shouldn't run into each other too much. Keep us posted!

 

[ryoder]

Take it to Jewell aviation.  They will overhaul the engine for about 12k without mags and carb.  Don't tell him what you paid :)

[Hank]

21 hours ago, rbuck said:

I don't know of a good pre-buy location near Buffalo, but I would make sure that you go through a reputable source. I am also not sure if the pre-buy process is any different for a partnership. That's the kind of thing that one of the old pros like Hank can answer. 

 

Woo hooo!! I'm an old pro! Wait--does that mean I'm old? 

A good prebuy is tremendously important, just look at Anthony's off-the-cuff list.

buying into a partnership is just like buying the plane by yourself, with the addition that you also need to check out the potential partner. In your case, investigate the full price of an overhaul, including Removing & Reinstalling the engine (R&R), accessories (fuel pump, alternator, carburetor, starter, prop governor, etc.). This will add significantly to the quoted Engine Overhaul price.

How does this compare to the value of the plane? It should be half. If it is significantly more than half, your partner should split the difference. You pay half the value of the plane towards the OH, he pays the rest.

another thing to consider is how I did it. The plane was for sale at the airport where I took my lessons. Half was all I could afford, and more than I had been hoping to pay for a plane of my own. So I asked if he would sell me half now and the other half later, giving me time to pay down the first half. Three and a half short years later, I bought the second half. Now she's all mine, and thanks to a mortgage refi and a 600 mile relocation, she's paid off and all mine!    

Do due diligence on the plane, total overhaul costs and your partner. It can be a great way to ease into Mooney ownership.

[AlexLev]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Woo hooo!! I'm an old pro! Wait--does that mean I'm old? 

A good prebuy is tremendously important, just look at Anthony's off-the-cuff list.

buying into a partnership is just like buying the plane by yourself, with the addition that you also need to check out the potential partner. In your case, investigate the full price of an overhaul, including Removing & Reinstalling the engine (R&R), accessories (fuel pump, alternator, carburetor, starter, prop governor, etc.). This will add significantly to the quoted Engine Overhaul price.

How does this compare to the value of the plane? It should be half. If it is significantly more than half, your partner should split the difference. You pay half the value of the plane towards the OH, he pays the rest.

another thing to consider is how I did it. The plane was for sale at the airport where I took my lessons. Half was all I could afford, and more than I had been hoping to pay for a plane of my own. So I asked if he would sell me half now and the other half later, giving me time to pay down the first half. Three and a half short years later, I bought the second half. Now she's all mine, and thanks to a mortgage refi and a 600 mile relocation, she's paid off and all mine!    

Do due diligence on the plane, total overhaul costs and your partner. It can be a great way to ease into Mooney ownership.

 

Thanks for posting this -- this is sort of the idea, although it may be tough to negotiate psychologically something like him paying toward the value of the overhaul. If I pay for the overhaul AND he gives me some $ and I get half the airplane, he may feel like he is losing out, despite what the actual value of the airplane may be.

I like the idea of buying in with the idea of buying the rest of the plane later. That's sort of what I'm hoping to do, but in your case -- how did you handle the fixed costs (hangar, etc) while the other partner technically still owned half? Did you split the hangar fees with him or take on all those fixed costs yourself?

[AlexLev]

Took a pretty quick look at the plane this morning and chatted with the owner. We flew it for about 10-15 minutes, nothing too extensive.

Learned there was a prop strike in its past with the previous owner in 1992 or so. The tail back of the tail had a minor bend that was straightened out. He said it was hangar rash that happened when he had it in a larger hangar at another airport, the place straightened it out. Other than that, it seemed to fly okay.

Owner is not sure he wants a partner, probably looking to sell outright. He has owned the plane since 1997 (I believe). He has put 1600 hours on it over the last 18 years. The plane definitely seemed to be sitting around.

He printer the Vref value of it to be 30.5k and that seems to be what he wants. I'm not really that excited about the plane after sitting in it, noticing some of its bugs and its timed out engine, but would consider offering him 20k-22k for it pending a prebuy inspection.

He just started the selling process now, so he hasn't put the plane up anywhere and I think I was one of the first people to take a look at it. He said he may consider a partnership if he can't find someone to buy it outright, but I don't know if I really want to buy in on this airplane if the cost is me overhauling the engine.

It also didn't seem to fly very fast (but it was hard to measure true speed over ground, I wish we did by flying in 4 different directions at a constant power setting to see what speeds the plane seemed to produce), but he kept the rpm 2300-2400 since we were quite low the whole time. It also has no shoulder strap and the engine instruments are not in a standard shape. One of the radios doesn't light up well in the cold and the left fuel indicator seemed to not work well. How much would it cost to at least put a shoulder harness in the thing?

Again with a 2500hour engine (engine remanufactured in 86, top overhaul in 92 [prolly after the prop strike], the old avionics (but the stec and storm scope, carb heat temp Guage and fuel flow meter are nice), it's probably a tough plane to sell. He mentioned the oil leaked at some point, but he had it fixed up. I haven't looked at the logs yet so I'm sure there's lots to learn there. He mentioned his annuals generally cost him 2.2 to 2.7k.

It was my first time flying in a 20c and using the Johnson bar. Kinda fun. I like how the airplane feels and handles. The manual gear will take some getting used to I'm sure. It was more cramped with 2 people than I anticipated and I can't imagine 3 or 4 people in there, although he claims he had 4 people he flew to Indiana at some point.

Despite all that the plane seemed to fly okay. At 20-22k I think it's probably a fair price as long as there are no signs of corrosion and the engine is not making metal, despite it being 2500 SMOH. I'd love for someone with some 20c experience to take a look at it too, so that might be my next step.

[Rwsavory]

There are some big pluses and minuses with this plane.  The 60-2 autopilot is a good one and would set you back about 20K new.  No GPS and high engine time really bring the value down.  But the Bottom Line is:  If you're not excited about it, keep looking.  

[AlexLev]

I'm excited, just cautious ;). I'd need to take it on a cross country to really get a feel for it and be excited, as that is it's intended mission ;). Shall see.

[Hank]

When I make breakfast / lunch runs around 3000 msl, I generally run 23" / 2300 and indicate 140-145 mph. Starting around 4000-4500, I push up to 2400, but that's generally either step-descents or level off during climb, not real sure of indicated speeds there.

Short bodies are short on passenger space. I've had four adults in mine several times, but usually only for lunch runs. An hour and a half is a long time sitting in those back seats with another person! Three people is very doable, and it all holds baggage when I travel with my wife, especially during the holidays.