Opinions on potential M20K Purchase

[1mParker]

Hi,

I'm new here and looking for the perfect Mooney.  My heart says it wants a Bravo but my budget is more along the lines of a 231 or 252.  In any case the following aircraft caught my eye and has some nice upgrades as well.

 

Can you all help me determine if this is a good buy for the long term?

 

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1980-MOONEY-M20K-231/1370093.htm

 

The logs (which I have) indicate that there was spar corrosion which was fixed.  Is this a concern or is the fact that it was fixed good news?

 

There appears to have been a hard landing with a large amount of work completed afterwards.  Any concern here?

 

 

The engine compressions seem low to me for an engine with only 180 hours, Can you provide insight?  68 72 70 64 62 74/80

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Regards,

Matt

[anthonydesmet]

HI Matt and welcome to the forum and your first Mooney to be.  You are going to find a lot of great guys here with a lot of great advice.  I felt inclined to reply to your post because I was in your same shoes a year ago.  I closed on my first Mooney last June and just went through my first annual. I am sure you are going to get plenty of advice from you post but I just wanted to add my two+ cents from just recently going through what you did and also reflecting on my 1st year of ownership and my first annual.  So here you go:

1. I also spent many many many hours and about 4 years looking through Controller, Trade a plane, etc and actually walked away from 4 pre-buys.  So my comment here is....you don't know ANYTHING about an airplane until you find a reputable pre-purchase mechanic to go down this road with you. (preferably a Mooney Service Center. Another shop is acceptable but do some research to find out how reputable they are with Mooneys...again, depending on where you want the pre-buy there are plenty of folks here that can give you recommendations and probably help coordinate delivery). Bottom line - until someone who can read between the lines of logbooks and knows what he is looking for when he starts to tear it down you don't know what you are getting.

 

2. The "partial engine failure" would have me a little nervous and may also account for the what seems to be a "little low sale price" for an airplane with 180 hours on engine/prop, new paint, etc.  Not to say this is bad but will all depend on exactly "what happened" and who repaired it and how it was repaired.  For example, I walked away from all gear up landing aircraft I saw. However, what sold me on my purchase (gear up in 1989) was the fact that all repairs were made by Dugosh and there were about 8 Dugosh and Maxwell annuals throughout the last 12 years of my planes history.  In addition the engine the Trophy 262 overhaul with solid logbooks since. Some gear ups and prop strikes may have a field overhaul or "partial overhaul" and I wold be skeptical and want to see all oil analysis since the overhaul.  Thats also what I had in my logbooks

 

3. TSIO 360 GB - not the "best" engine that came out with the original turbo.  If you can find an LB with Intercooler and Merlin waste gate I think from what I have heard and researched you will have a lot less issues and be a little happier when you start to hit 800 to 1000 hours.  With the GB, the pilot really has to watch his parameters to make sure he hits TBO without a top overhaul. If you can find a 231 with a MB Trophy conversion even better because now you have a Mooney 252 from the firewall forward which, in my opinion, is one of the best Mooneys made for the money on the current market.  But again, my opinion and I am sure there are a lot others out there.

 

4. Engine compressions on the Continental are relatively lower than the Lycoming.  They don't look to bad and they look pretty uniform.  But again, having a knowledgable mechanic who knows how to calibrate the compression tool before the readings will give you the accurate picture.

 

5. Hard landing - Mooney's are tough but again, I would find out the story and what was damaged and who repaired it.

 

6. Definitely ask about any wing tank reseals.  Especially before or since the repaint.  A new pant job is great but I found that a new paint job followed by going on the market for sale a year or two after means there maybe a story somewhere in there.

 

7. Corrosion - most people here would walk away as a Mooney with a corrosion history is not good. May also tie into the paint story. But again, maybe fine depending on who did the repairs (Wilmer?) and exactly what they did.  Also, after the corrosion repair I would probably want to see some Mooney Service center annuals, Dugosh, Maxwell, etc.

 

I know I kind of rambled but these were all the things I either ran into or had passed down to me the 3 years I was looking.  Dan Howard aircraft sales from what I hear does have a pretty good reputation but remember in the end - its just business. My recommendation is be patient, take your time, don't get drawn off on pretty paint jobs and super low engine or airframe times. Although all these things are great, an airplane with a 180 engine hours since a 2013 annual is much better than 180 hours from a 2009 overhaul. Each airplane has a story and it takes some digging to find out what it is.  In the end, the last two years I was looking I gratefully ran into a broker I got to know and trust who helped me through the process.  What resulted is now I have had an airplane with no surprises my first year of ownership and walked out of my first annual from a Mooney Service Center way under budget

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Stay away from the GB engine.  It's antiquated, runs hot, was Mooney's first shot at turbochargng and will cost you more in the long run.  

[WilliamR]

I will cautiously chime in here.  I flew that airplane for several hours in 2011.  I didn't own it.  Aesthetically, it was very nice.  I don't remember the spar splice.  But then again, I was just the pilot, not the owner.  The partial engine failure doesn't concern me very much since it's been overhauled since.  When I flew it, I seem to remember a slight seep on the top on the left wing when fully fueled.  This seep was well within allowable specs. 

 

I also don't remember the 3308.  That may be a newer install.  However, if the tube goes in that, the unit is not worth repairing.  Not a negative in my opinion, just something to be aware of.

 

WRT the GB engine, I could have sworn that whenever they are overhauled by any shop, the new intake is installed making it an LB.  Something to just check.  The auto wastegate is nice to have.  That was installed prior to my flying it. 

 

Note, I never had cooling issues flying the plane, and it ran lean of peak very nicely.  It had Gamis.  Of course that was on the pre-overhaul engine.  CHTs never exceeded 380 and it would run way lean of peak, like fuel flow down to 8.5 - 9 gal/hr (can't remember how lean that was temp wise, but surely north of 50 F LOP) at 27 in. and 2500 RPM.  However, the speed penalty wasn't worth it , and I would push up the fuel to about 25 - 50 LOP. 

 

Hope this helps.  BTW, I don't know the owner from Adam.  My friend sold the plane in 2012 I believe.  Shortly after the interior install.  But before the engine problem.

 

William

[carusoam]

Matt,

Have you become familiar with the PPI process?

The pre purchase inspection is the tool to use when buying expensive machinery.

It is the best way to protect your wallet.

It is not a perfect solution, but will cover many of the tough issues...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob]

In our modern world, everyone takes pictures of everything.  Ask the owner for pics of corrosion, prop damage and pre paint condition.  The first thing he did after "damaging only the prop"  was take a picture of the prop with the rest of the plane in the background.  He may or may not be honest, but the truth will be shown.

 

Continental no longer overhauls a GB motor.  They sell you a rebuilt LB.  Most K owners know this and I find it unusual that a owner with a prop strike, at 100 past TBO, would rebuild the GB.

 

Did it get painted due to damage?  Who knows.  But he also did the interior, so maybe he decided to "freshen up" the plane when the engine was out??

EZ to do when insurance may be paying for a portion of your budgeted engine, that makes some money available for other stuff.

 

Requesting specific pics will answer a lot!

[1mParker]

Thank You everyone for your experience and recommendations.  I am most certainly going to conduct a pre-buy before I purchase but am looking for some criteria for weeding out the chaff before I start paying for a pre-buy.

 

With regard to the GB engine.  Everywhere I read that when overhauled Continental converts your engine to a LB yet the logs on this plane clearly indicate that after the 2012 overhaul a GB engine was installed.  What happened here to allow this to happen?  Could it have been someone with a bunch of old GB parts selling them at fire sale prices?

 

The search continues...

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

The engine was field overhauled which is NOT the same as a "0" time FACTORY reman where the "GB" designation is changed to the "LB" designation as a result of the larger throttle body which allows the engine to run significantly cooler. I would NOT mess with a "GB" engine.

[chrisk]

The LB vs GB is one area where I am confused by the rules and regulations.   I know Continental will convert a GB engine to LB, as they did for my plane.  My questions is: can a field overhaul actually perform a GB to LB conversion, and would the engine get the LB designation?  I assume there is an overhaul manual.  Does it require the LB parts?  And if a field over haul changes to the LB parts, can they change the engine designation to LB? 

[N231BN]

Continental Service Bulletin M75-6, Rev 1 addresses conversions from one model to another.

 

FWIW, there are many owners with -GB engines that are getting along just fine.

[Heloman]

I asked the seller if the GB was a typo because I thought everyone converted them at overhaul but he confirmed it wasn't a typo. Kind of made me wonder why; also plenty of upgraded LBs or "262s" around, so...

[DonMuncy]

I asked the seller if the GB was a typo because I thought everyone converted them at overhaul but he confirmed it wasn't a typo. Kind of made me wonder why; also plenty of upgraded LBs or "262s" around, so...

Almost certainly money. Someone would overhaul it cheaper without the LB conversion. As previously noted, there are GBs flying around and not falling apart, but it must be factored onto the price. If the engine has 1700 SMOH, then likely almost no price difference. You are factoring in an overhaul anyway.