the dreaded base to final turn

[Bob_Belville]

Bob awesome job, I forgot how hot it got on that approach procedure...it's been a few yrs, very instructional video...

As I read the advice, and I'm not knocking it, to stay wide and shallow I'm wondering where folks will get the feel for the plane necessary to be comfortable when the tower asks you to do what I had to at SunNFun which was hardly a big deal. For that matter, where do I get the confidence I'll need to do a successful emergency landing in a 2 or 3 football length pasture? Dead engines allow no go arounds. 

[carusoam]

20F,

Senses work in strange ways...

Some people (none of us here) are missing what seems to be obvious cues.

Obvious to some can be very challenging for others?

Fortunately we are not all the same!

Where is the AOA committee...?

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

Nose up or nose down isn't the driving factor it is g-loading that impacts stall speed for the most part. You build that by pulling back on the yoke in the turn to hold altitude or minimize speed increase. You can bank 90 degrees but if you let the nose fall as needed to keep 1g the stall speed isn't going to increase. You put in a 90 degree bank and try to hold altitude it obviously is a very different story. Fly a stabilized and sufficent pattern and don't load up the wings and you will never have a problem. Once you feel those G's coming on though that should be your first and most important indicator that you are headed for a problem.

Re stall/spin and pulling back yoke... I doubt seriously that our Mooney will stall unless the elevator is pulled above the trimmed position even if pitch trim is full nose up even if plane is banked 45 deg. Anyone disagree? 

[Piloto]

Best way to avoid an steep base-final turn is to fly an extended downwind so you have plenty of room to maneuver. Sometimes a crosswind on the downwind  can cause you to drift to the approach path without you noticing because the runway is behind. To avoid drifting I set the GPS OBS to the inbound runway heading and fly parallel to the course line (one dot on the CDI) to it while on the downwind until the turn, very handy at night.

 

José   

[bonal]

I too don't have too many options at my home airport because of parallel runways. Keeping the speed up and increasing the bank is the only way to avoid a potential head on with another plane heading to the parallel runway. Not getting into this situation is the best measure in the first place but due to winds it could throw one off and one has to be prepared to deal with it. I have an AoA indicator and so far I have never seen it go off except on the flare.

Trying to think what I could add to this discussion that might be of some use. Klvk is my most frequently visited AP and your right about the 2 base legs approaching toward each other but there is quite a bit of offset from 25R and 25L. My normal arrival puts me right inline for the 45 entry to 25r and on a few occasions they have had traffic making both left and right base turns but my right base is quite a bit further down wind than the left base being made by the opposite traffic. What always seems a concern there and at Ksts my other frequently visited AP when things get busy having the tower make adjustments to your normal pattern procedure. Requesting extended down wind or a quick turn to base or in one case I was just over the numbers on 25R and tower requested if I could make 25L at the last second. What I'm trying to say is it's always nice to be able to fly the numbers on a stabilized approach but you need to be ready to make adjustments at any time because conditions are likely to change when you least expect it. Sorry to hear about your friend and I'm glad he is OK. My biggest rule of thumb is the closer the ground gets the smarter I better be.

[Hank]

I've been asked to change runways, including on short final at Sun n Fun. Then they had me fly 5000' down 9R by myself while multiple planes landed on 9L (normally the taxiway) before letting me land. Didn't need to bank steeply or maneuver hard, I just moved over some and held just in ground effect until they told me I could touch down.

The sad thing was, after my fine display of aviation, nobody posted a picture on line . . .

[ryoder]

I think I'll just drive to Sun N Fun this year

[Hank]

Cmon, be a sport! Take the extra time and fly over. 

[fantom]

So, does never having done a go around in anger in 25 years of VFR flying make me an exceptionally good pilot or an exceptionally bad one?

 

 

Possibly just a very lucky one, Jim!

[scottfromiowa]

Re stall/spin and pulling back yoke... I doubt seriously that our Mooney will stall unless the elevator is pulled above the trimmed position even if pitch trim is full nose up even if plane is banked 45 deg. Anyone disagree?

Wind & weight & Airspeed as contributing factors to bank angle? Yes

[rbridges]

Really don't understand the fear of banking beyond 30 degrees base to final either, the nose should be pointed down at this point. Banking and yanking is a problem, but with down pitch you aren't going to stall if you keep the wings unloaded.

 

 

True. The effect of bank on stall speed tables that Anthony referenced assume level flight. Lowering the nose when banking in this phase of flight should be instinctive, but the NTSB reports show that it is not. I try to keep pattern turns shallow anyway.

Jim

 

My CFII told me the same thing when teaching me circle to land approaches.  I was pretty nervous about doing such tight turns in the pattern.  

[Bob - S50]

Bob, I think you got it right.

 

Bank angle doesn't make you stall, AOA does.  For the majority of us without AOA gauges we can think wing loading (G's).

 

You can be at 90 degrees of bank and not stall, but you aren't going to maintain level flight or even a slight descent.

 

In a GA airplane the rudder is used to coordinate flight, not turn or roll.

 

The ONLY reasons I can think of to purposely use cross controls are a slip to lose altitude or to compensate for crosswinds.

 

Compared to at least one of my flying partners, I tend to fly 'bomber' patterns.  Ok with me. Tease me as much as you like, I don't care.  My goal is to live, not impress somebody. They are wide enough that I can roll out on base, take a look for straight in traffic and then time my turn to final.  I also fly 80 knots until final.

 

If you have a little overshoot and can make a coordinated turn with normal bank and wing loading to get back on final at a reasonable altitude, do it.  If it will take lots of extra bank and pull, or put you on final at a low altitude, go around.

 

If you find yourself low, slow, still in a turn, and still overshooting; roll out, level the wings, pour the coal to it, and get away from the ground.  The probability of kill (PK) of hitting another airplane is relatively low.  The PK or the ground is pretty high.

 

Bob

[Bob_Belville]

Wind & weight & Airspeed as contributing factors to bank angle? Yes

Scott, I'm not sure what you are commenting on?

 

I asked if anyone thought a Mooney would be at risk of stalling if the pilot did not pull back on the elevator. In other words, if the pilot banks, even to 45 deg, on base to final, he will not cause a stall unless he tried to hold up the nose. Are you saying otherwise?

[Andy95W]

Scott, I'm not sure what you are commenting on?

 

I asked if anyone thought a Mooney would be at risk of stalling if the pilot did not pull back on the elevator. In other words, if the pilot banks, even to 45 deg, on base to final, he will not cause a stall unless he tried to hold up the nose. Are you saying otherwise?

Well, officially the answer is, "A fixed-wing aircraft can be made to stall in any pitch attitude or bank angle or at any airspeed."

For me personally, the downward vertical speed generated by the 45° bank angle (as well doubling the load factor) at only about 400' AGL, I'm not sure that I wouldn't instinctively (and unconsciously) put in some back pressure on the yoke.

My experience level is about 11,000 hours. Since this happened to a 15,000 DPE, I'm going to be more careful and try to not get complacent when I'm flying.

Thanks, RobertE, for starting this thread.

[bd32322]

Scott, I'm not sure what you are commenting on?

 

I asked if anyone thought a Mooney would be at risk of stalling if the pilot did not pull back on the elevator. In other words, if the pilot banks, even to 45 deg, on base to final, he will not cause a stall unless he tried to hold up the nose. Are you saying otherwise?

 

Bob from a theoretical discussion perspective - you could bank sharply and not stall if you dont touch the yoke or apply back pressure. The aircraft will unload the wings by putting the nose down. Its probably a certification requirement - I dont know (probably an aircraft stability characteristic)

 

However, doing this in the pattern is problematic because the resultant rate of descent will look horrific and one will instinctively prevent oneself from falling by pulling on the yoke.

[John Pleisse]

\

So, does never having done a go around in anger in 25 years of VFR flying make me an exceptionally good pilot or an exceptionally bad one? Seriously. I practice them but it is not something that I ever have to do.

Jim

 

I had very good CFII and his girlfriend in the back doing approaches a few weeks ago. She is a rated pilot too. I overshot, not by much. If I had been by myself, I could have easily saved it. I instinctively put the power in and went around. My comment to my passengers was "....Sorry, don't want everybody to read about us in the back of AOPA" (or on Mooneyspace). Embarrassing.

[scottfromiowa]

Scott, I'm not sure what you are commenting on?

 

I asked if anyone thought a Mooney would be at risk of stalling if the pilot did not pull back on the elevator. In other words, if the pilot banks, even to 45 deg, on base to final, he will not cause a stall unless he tried to hold up the nose. Are you saying otherwise?

I agree Bob. Just adding that your weight, wind direction combined with a quick steep bank on overshoot...NOT just the bank with an overshoot can be mitigating factors that can result in a stall spin.

[bonal]

my most common base to final mistake is with a strong crosswind that I'm heading into on base and I wait too long for my final turn (over compensating) the nice thing here is the crosswind is pushing me back to alignment with the runway. I havent been flying for very long and have only elected to do a go around once that was not preplanned (for practice) it was during my second semi annual flight review on a divert to Anguin and it was really windy and I overshot but managed to get lined up ok but my speed was too great and I bounced so I firewalled the throttle did every thing for the go around and made a good second attempt. after I told my CFI that was my first and he said I did every thing right which made me feel better about the first attempt.

[scottfromiowa]

There is a Beech pilot that flies in/out of D25 a lot...or at least he is there often when I am there. The guy does dives and then climbs into steep turns around airport. The pilot then bounces it down the runway on landing...

When I am around an airport at pattern or below that is the last place I would be doing these types of maneuvers in my passenger plane...

[jlunseth]

Yes you can stall a Mooney in a steep banked turn even if you do not hold the nose up. The 60 degree banked clean stall speed in my aircraft is about 90. In practicing steep spirals for commercial I could get the stall warning to go off at 85 kts. in a descending spiral just by steepening the bank to 60 degrees. There is not enough vertical lift component left.

[DaV8or]

Really don't understand the fear of banking beyond 30 degrees base to final either, the nose should be pointed down at this point. Banking and yanking is a problem, but with down pitch you aren't going to stall if you keep the wings unloaded.

 

True, but this is a common area where pilots have proven to F up and die. Yanking and banking is more intuitive to most people's brains. We have been taught that altitude buys us options and time, therefore in a panic, we want to keep altitude and prolong our contact with the ground. This explains the yanking and the poorly planned approach explains the banking.

 

To simply say- "Well, just don't do that!" is not good enough IMO.

 

IMO, the issue lies a little bit with training. I get the "not over 30 degree bank" idea, I really do. I subscribe to this as well for the most part. However, I also understand that in some circumstances, greater than 30 degrees is OK, IF one remembers to keep the speed up, it's no different that thousands of airshow performers that do it every year. The problem is most of us are not taught this kind of maneuvering. Collectively, the GA community should be saying, keep it tight and get training in how to safely do this.

 

It is what it is for a reason. There is an emphasis on getting students out the door as close to 40 hours as possible. That's OK, but it doesn't give a lot of time to practice low level higher performance maneuvers. It would be cool if there were a curriculum for this like there is the "high performance" checkout, or the "complex" checkout.

 

Given the average pilot's lack of practice of steep bank angle approaches and the likelihood of an engine failure in the pattern, I would say that the GA community should stop bitching about "B-52 Pattens".  Understand that pilots with less skills and training don't feel comfortable with tight, WWII era patterns of the good ol' days, where pilots died a lot!

 

Having said that, I think students should seek out training on close in, tight bank approach landings. It takes skill, training and practice to land like an airshow performer. Skill, training and practice are good things. Encourage this path, but don't make people feel like useless idiots for failing to live up to 10,000 hour standards.

 

Just my perspective. By the way, I have practiced higher bank angles at higher air speeds and support a close in pattern, but I do not criticize those that fly a wider pattern.

[DaV8or]

AOA indicators

I need to install one

 

I seriously think these things could save a lot of people if we all had them installed and were trained to use them.

 

I want one!!!

[DaV8or]

I see your point and agree with it, Dave, but a few weeks ago I shared the pattern at "my" little uncontrolled field with an SR-22 pilot who was flying patterns that repeatedly produced five mile final radio calls. My god was it frustrating. I didn't say a word or complain, though.

Jim

 

We're all in this together. We are always wringing our hands and asking questions on how we can help GA grow. One super great way is patience and understanding of newbies. Imagine if a flight of P-51s where entering the pattern unannounced, or a vintage Curitis JN-4 Jenny making a super slow approach, you would make space, make allowances because those flights are kind of cool. The way things are now, anybody flying is cool and deserves a bit of space.

[mike_elliott]

 As bonus coverage you can see a bounce recovery caused by touching down a little fast. :-)

 

 I thought it was from the load of bees you bought down with you

[jetdriven]

I seriously think these things could save a lot of people if we all had them installed and were trained to use them.

 

I want one!!!

Are these calibrated to anything other than full flaps and gear down? Do they actually measure AOA?