Buying a Project...

[d0tnet]

Having been working a local broker to come up with a shortlist of aircraft to acquire, an unexpected wrench got thrown into the mix. 

 

I heard from a buddy about this local M20J hangar queen. 

 

Regretfully, I too a look at it this weekend on my own and now can't stop thinking about the possibilities....

 

The plane is a '84 low time (read: <800TTSN, same SMOH), 2 owner (current owner since '85), NDH, hangar stored.    Original avionics, no AP, not IFR certified, last ten years only 10 hours (probably just annual runups), original interior and paint, etc. 

 

The engine fired right up and it shows decent compression on prior year annuals, but with a recent cylinder replacement and probability for rust inside the engine, I would want to assume the worst and plan to follow the Lycoming 12 year recommended TBO.  Go with either the 360-A3B6 or 390 STC.  Additionally, it does not show to have significant signs of corrosion, sans some light discoloration at the top inside of the fuel tanks.

 

Obviously needs a ton of love.  But reminiscent of some of those incredible barn finds I have seen.

 

Here is a budget, round figures, that I put together -

Reman engine overhaul~30k

Prop ~10k

Interior ~10k

Paint ~10k

Speed Mods ~ 7k

Avionics ~30k (S-Tec 30 Alt hold, GTN-750, GTN-650, 340, 330)

My expectations after spending the above listed 97k would be to have a like new aircraft that can handle my typical mission (400nm IFR cross country).  Paint and speed mods would probably get deferred.

 

Am I missing anything here in the budget?  What would an aircraft like that be worth in today's market? 

 

The intrinsic value to me is knowing the whole plane has been gone through, but with the available options on the market today, it is still hard to justify 3-4 months downtime and then potentially be completely upside down value wise. 

 

Thus, I defer to those more knowledgeable than I for insight.... 

[carusoam]

Next step, get real, hard quotes...

Pre Purchase Inspection is still important to identify what you have before buying it.

Put something in the budget for fuel tank maintenance.

You haven't mentioned your objective.

The phrase barn find is a bit unusual. It means you have found something that has been uncared for, for a long time... That you intend spend a boat load on to get back into flying condition...

Are you a pilot?

Do you have restoration experience?

Did you just win the lottery, launch a small tech company, or inherit a small fortune?

Many people, with different budgets and different expectations have turned old Mooneys into excellent flying machines.

It takes a combination of work, money, time, and a plan.

You have a good start.

Welcome aboard,

-a-

[MB65E]

Hoses-$2500

Tanks-$8k

Misc defered pop up items--$10K

Corrosion inspection/prepurchase -$2500

Annual after all your stated work-$2500

Landing gear Overhaul -$2k biscuits, and tare down of gear motor.

ADSB compliant adding 1500 in for the "ES" 330

Just make sure the airframe is solid, everything else is replaceable!

Good luck! Good news is it's not a 50 year old aircraft like most of the projects are.

-Matt

[DanM20C]

I haven't checked engine overhaul prices but I think 30K would be on the low end.  The previous owner of my C dropped 27K on the factory reman 10 years ago.

 

10K will get you a nice interior, you could do if for half that if you shop around and do some of the work yourself.

 

10K for paint is a little low.  a good paint job will probably cost closer to 12-15K.

 

7K for speed mods?  it's an 84' J model, doesn't need any.

 

30K for avionics would only get you the first two items on your list.

 

 

Others will point out expenses you haven't thought bout.  Fuel tank reseal, etc.. Just be careful, I have seen low time "barn find" airplanes that if were free would be too much money in the end.  I was recently offered a "Deal" on a late model V35B that I almost jumped on.  After considering all the $$ to get it were it needs to be, I realized I could spend 15k less and buy a nice flying example with better avionics.

 

Good luck.

[Marauder]

You are looking closer to $50k on the avionics you mentioned. The big stuff will hurt, it's the little stuff that Matt mentioned that can put you in the poor house.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I wouldn't worry about the speed mods and just get a new prop instead (Hartzell 2-blade top prop).  If the airframe isn't a corrosion pit, and if you don't mind being pretty much upside down, there's nothing wrong it doing it all at once.  Go for it.  You get to have the plane exactly how you want it.

 

I also wouldn't get the IO-390.  Just go for an IO-360 Factory Overhaul Exchange.

[d0tnet]

Thanks for the feedback and welcome!

 

I concur regarding PPI and intend to have it performed at a MSC. 

 

Engine, prop, interior, and exterior quotes have been received.  I didn't want to publicly post these figures but they are encompassed in the budget incl. install.

 

I have spoken to several avionics shops and awaiting their quotes.

 

I have 9k in the budget for tanks from what I have seen on the boards for tank re-seal.

 

Good point re: phraseology.  I only referred to it as being reminiscent to a barn find in that the plane had such little time for its age.  Based on log review, it seems that more often than not was only run to satisfy the annual and all maintenance was preventative or in response to ADs.  The plane was washed regularly and kept in a private hangar for it's life. 

 

I am a pilot, and my intended objective is to utilize the aircraft for personal and business travel for ~400nm IFR trips.  My guess is I would keep the plane at least 3-4 years before considering something bigger/faster.

 

At this stage, I am just trying to weigh the option of buying a plane that is ready to go (mid-time engine, older avionics, etc) at 100k vs. buying this one on the cheap (40-50k) and pouring in 100k (zero time engine, new interior, new paint, new avionics, etc). 

 

I can see the 40k-50k extra in value having fresh equipment and a known baseline.  Further, since I have yet to see a plane on the market that I wouldn't need to spend some money upgrading avionics, overhauling engine, etc. I figure it makes sense to start out spending less on essentially the airframe and just do everything. 

 

I am, however, not trying to be reckless with my decision making process and relate everything back to market value.  vRef shows a 1984 fully loaded would price 140k retail.  I have a hard time believing a 1984 M20J would sell at that price point, let alone quickly.  Perhaps I am wrong?

[Parker_Woodruff]

That plane would sell for over $100,000, but not $140,000.  If you plan on keeping this plane a long time, your idea isn't bad.

[d0tnet]

Thanks for all the feedback and comments - responses below.

 

Is the consensus that an engine with such low time would not be worth just doing a top-end?  I would not imagine the engine to make TBO based on its history, but would you guys try to squeeze any life out of it or just immediately replace?  I was planning on paying to have the an engine boroscope done in the PPI and base it off of that.

 

I wouldn't worry about the speed mods and just get a new prop instead (Hartzell 2-blade top prop).  If the airframe isn't a corrosion pit, and if you don't mind being pretty much upside down, there's nothing wrong it doing it all at once.  Go for it.  You get to have the plane exactly how you want it.

 

I also wouldn't get the IO-390.  Just go for an IO-360 Factory Overhaul Exchange.

Okay, good advice. BTW - your plane came up numerous times when looking at examples for final product of this project.  Such a beaut!  I am going to reach out to Aero Comfort per your experience and feedback.

 

You are looking closer to $50k on the avionics you mentioned. The big stuff will hurt, it's the little stuff that Matt mentioned that can put you in the poor house.

Noted.. Thanks for the input.  Not looking forward to receiving the quotes from the avionics shops in that case and may need to scale back.

 

I haven't checked engine overhaul prices but I think 30K would be on the low end.  The previous owner of my C dropped 27K on the factory reman 10 years ago.

 

10K will get you a nice interior, you could do if for half that if you shop around and do some of the work yourself.

 

10K for paint is a little low.  a good paint job will probably cost closer to 12-15K.

 

7K for speed mods?  it's an 84' J model, doesn't need any.

 

30K for avionics would only get you the first two items on your list.

 

 

Others will point out expenses you haven't thought bout.  Fuel tank reseal, etc.. Just be careful, I have seen low time "barn find" airplanes that if were free would be too much money in the end.  I was recently offered a "Deal" on a late model V35B that I almost jumped on.  After considering all the $$ to get it were it needs to be, I realized I could spend 15k less and buy a nice flying example with better avionics.

 

Good luck.

Quotes I have received are all about 22,000 with an unlike core (A3B6D) for a Lycoming approved engine shop reman.  Add 4.8k for new cylinders vs overhauled, and then 2.5k for install. 

 

When looking at all the numbers coming in for non-budgeted items, you are spot on with your comments.  It is starting to get into that range of "you gotta pay me to buy your plane" in this example.  There are some great examples available on the market with the depreciated costs already realized that may be a better overall value.  Noted re: avionics and interior (I was planning on the Aero Comfort package and handle uninstall/install), will need to revise budget and eliminate the speed mods.  That allocation was for speed brakes.

 

Hoses-$2500
Tanks-$8k
Misc defered pop up items--$10K
Corrosion inspection/prepurchase -$2500
Annual after all your stated work-$2500
Landing gear Overhaul -$2k biscuits, and tare down of gear motor.
ADSB compliant adding 1500 in for the "ES" 330

Just make sure the airframe is solid, everything else is replaceable!

Good luck! Good news is it's not a 50 year old aircraft like most of the projects are.

-Matt

Matt - Great info and thanks for pointing out the pop-up items and landing gear OH!  Thanks!

[carusoam]

Part of getting the hard quotes for work will be getting a time frame that goes with it.

A factory reman engine was delivered in three weeks, a new prop took twice that. Getting it installed was measured in months.

There are waiting lists for everything...

Instrument panels are complex, but the modern avionics are incredible.

There are design services for paint schemes, and paint shops with Mooney experience. A good paint job can even make a V tail Brand B look un-ugly!

Get started immediately while the warm fuzzy feeling lasts.

This is an example imaginary plan...

Month 0 - write down plan, acquire quotes. Talk to insurance company often.

Month 1 - PPI, final negotiations, acquire the plane.

Month 2 - get plane in permanent hangar, complete overhaul plan for this S/N plane. Many phone calls.

Month 3 - place orders, communicate details with vendors.

Month 4 - receive engine.

Month 5 - install engine, receive prop.

Month 6 - install prop, receive avionics.

Month 7 - install avionics and engine monitor.

Month 8 - begin transition training. Fly. A lot!

Month 9 - BFR and IR currency.

Month 10 - interior month or tank reseal month.

Month 11 - strip, paint, and admire....

Month 12 - assess what needs to be done, corrected and added.

Month 13 - assess personal situation. Do you still have a family, are you still married, do you still have a job, does your car still run?

Month 14 - begin next steps. Search TAP for Ovation projects, 310 hp, TopProps, JPI 900, Aspen, ADSB, ELT....

Month 15 - receive award for having the most posts on MooneySpace.

What does your plan look like?

Best regards,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

There are a few 80's or later J models with updates currently advertised for 130k+.  Whether they will sell for that...who knows.  Prices have been coming up a bit on updated planes while vintage ones keep sliding.  

 

If your ownership outlook is only 3-4 years, I don't see how it would make sense unless you just want the experience that goes along with a major refurb.  You'll likely have 6 months of downtime or more.  You certainly won't get 100% of your dollars back at sale.  If you were going to own it indefinitely, then you can enjoy the expense and truly realize the "value" of it.  If your typical mission is only 400 nm, you're not going to save a measurable amount of time unless you go much, much faster, so I wouldn't automatically assume you'll outgrow the plane.

 

Having said that, an '84 J has all of the desirable updates and would be a worthy airframe to renew, especially due to the low TT and presumed lack of corrosion.  I wouldn't go in to such a proposition assuming that replacing everything is what needs to happen.  The panel and lack of autopilot likely scream out for attention, but I'm not sure the prop and engine need to be replaced yet.  Send the dual mag out for inspection first.  Get it running, borescope the valves, look in the filter, etc.  Maybe change the oil after 5 hours of flying.  You cannot easily look at the camshaft, which is likely the biggest concern, without removing a cylinder.  Maybe consider flying it as-is (presuming it inspects OK) for a while, and then consider a cylinder IRAN if needed, and at that point look inside and decide if you want to do the whole thing.  You might not need to spend the money for a new engine.

 

The fuel tanks might be fine if it has been hangared all this time.  Landing gear donuts would very likely need to be changed.  ALL of the rod ends would need to be checked to make sure they're not seized.  The gyros will likely fail soon after some use due to dried-up lubrication that settles at the bottom of the gyro.  An Aspen or G500 might make sense vs. overhauling old stuff.  I'd rather have a PFD + 1 WAAS GPS than two GPS and old gyros.  I'd also recommend a PS Engineering audio panel vs. the GMA-340.  

 

Good luck!  

[KSMooniac]

I'll also add that if you end up getting it painted, check out jezzie's gallery here for his '77 J complete restoration.  This occurred over years, but it will give you a good idea of what to do.  I especially like the landing gear renewal with it completely removed and refinished vs. getting sprayed (poorly) like mine during my re-paint.  If you're going to change donuts, this would be an opportune time to just refreshed everything under there, and later have it completely masked when the rest of the plane is painted.  The paint shop will enjoy NOT having to address the gear!

[Mooneymite]

Here's the way I look at such plans:

 

Everything on the market is "discounted".  The used plane market is very depressed.

 

Pieces/parts are not discounted.  Aircraftspruce, Garmin, S-tec, etc. still want full retail.  Shops still have to pay their workers full salary, no discount on labor, either.

 

If you just love the thought of building up your own plane to your own specs, have a blast, but realize that it is going to cost you in money, but mostly in headaches and time.

 

If what you want is a M-20J, wait for just the plane you want and buy it at a full discount.  (There's a nice "205" for sale in my neighborhood, at a great price.)

 

I have an RV-4 in my hangar that I stopped working on when the airplane market tanked.  If I worked my a$$ off and completed the project, I would be a minimum of $40K upside down before I took the first flight.  I bought a completed RV-4, got the plane I wanted and saved a bundle.

 

YMMV.  Incidentally, if anyone wants the first two RV-4 kits, let me know.  

[fantom]

You've got about three days to swoop in, buy my squawk free plane, and save yourself more aggravation that you'll ever imagine.

 

Otherwise, I think it's gone.

 

You've got a PM.

[carusoam]

I hear '94 was a good year at the Mooney factory....

Best regards,

-a-

[N601RX]

I would say skip the new prop and just have the old one resealed or overhauled if needed.  The savings will get your tanks resealed if needed.

[Mike A]

An Aspen or G500 might make sense vs. overhauling old stuff.  I'd rather have a PFD + 1 WAAS GPS than two GPS and old gyros.  

 

+1.  

 

My 231 had the original 1980 panel in it with the addition of an S-tec 30 autopilot.  I added an Aspen PFD, 430 WAAS, and JPI-730 engine monitor for about $27k. 

[rbridges]

If it's a hangar queen, I would think the paint and interior are in decent shape.  They may look dated but be in good shape.  The engine would concern me.  The other stuff such as paint, interior, speed mods (IMO the J's don't really get any real benefit) can wait.  The avionics would be second.  Unless you plan to keep the plane for a while, I would not go crazy with them.  A certified GPS and autopilot will probably be the biggest single expenses in the panel.

[Parker_Woodruff]

You've got about three days to swoop in, buy my squawk free plane, and save yourself more aggravation that you'll ever imagine.

Otherwise, I think it's gone.

You've got a PM.

Yep...you get 10 years newer and a turnkey airplane.

[FlyWalt]

+1.  

 

My 231 had the original 1980 panel in it with the addition of an S-tec 30 autopilot.  I added an Aspen PFD, 430 WAAS, and JPI-730 engine monitor for about $27k. 

I am going to make everyone jealous here. My 78 231 came to me two years ago with an original panel. The fanciest item was the KNS-80 which i LOVE flying with. 

 

This week I am going to pick up our baby from the avionics shop with GMA-340, GNS-480, GTX-327 installed for all under 12,000. This is thanks to the power of finding the right sellers on Barnstormers and Ebay. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, the right avionics shop that is happy to work with your client provided equipment.

 

I honestly could not believe the attitudes I ran into when talking to sales droids at the big avionics shops. This is our price, take it or leave it was what I got from GCA and Sarasota. And from what I understand, these shops are making an nice mark up on both the equipment and the installs.

 

It pays to KNOW what you want and not give in to what the vendor wants for his convinence. 

[Mike A]

This is our price, take it or leave it was what I got from GCA and Sarasota. And from what I understand, these shops are making an nice mark up on both the equipment and the installs.

 

 

That is a completely different experience than I had.  I had those two bidding against each other and let them know it.  From the original quotes to the final price decreased by about $2500.  The GCA actually came back after I had taken Sarasota's offer and bettered the price once again, but I stuck with my word to Sarasota.  All the other smaller, highly recommended shops in the SE came back way higher and they were the ones who had the my price or I'm not doing it attitude.

 

In this day and age of portable ADS-B/GPS and Ipads, you don't really need the super fancy stuff.  I'd say get a PFD, WAAS GPS, and engine monitor (although its probably not as important on a J as it is on a K).  Remember that by 2020 you are going to have to have a WAAS GPS installed some way some how onboard to meet the mandate.  

 

Also, LPV approaches are pretty awesome.

[fantom]

 

You've got about three days to swoop in, buy my squawk free plane, and save yourself more aggravation that you'll ever imagine.

 

Otherwise, I think it's gone.

 

You've got a PM.

 

 

Too late, I believe...

 

Oh, and I too, have had nothing but good fair experiences with Kurt and Bill at Sarasota. First rate people! 

[Alan Fox]

For the 40 to 50 K acquisition , and the short planned time of ownership , this plan makes no sense at all ...Its not economically sensible.....A lot of the time people get sucked in by the low cost of admission , and soon find out it is a lot cheaper to spend the money up front......If you were to buy this plane , Top it and fly it 500 hours , It might be a decent deal... to Build a modern plane , costs a lot more than will ever be realized at resale......

[FlyWalt]

Well I am pretty quick to walk away when someone puts up an image of stubborness and does not realize how to negotiate with potential buyers. Maybe I am getting old but I do not care to work hard to give someone my business. If there are that many buyers for the latest greatest 10 thousand dollar box, widget, whatever then I need to give them five years to saturate the market and then buy when they drop the price.

[KSMooniac]

In addition to Fantom's really nice J/MSE, here is another one on the market for reference:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-205/1987-MOONEY-M20J-205/1342117.htm

 

Won't be many buyers at that price, but it just takes one.  It would be hard to duplicate the upgrades for less than this asking price.  Of course the candidate project plane would have 3000 fewer hours on it, which matters to some people.