Touch and Go's

[Mooneymite]

I had to wait one time at KPIE while a few (2 or 3) Orion P3's to do some touch an go's.  The way I see it, a P3 is more complex than a Mooney, so there is no good reason you can do touch and go's in a Mooney.  Having said that, it does incur more risk than a full land, taxi back, and take off sequence. 

Yeah, I've got a lot of T&G's in P-3's, and I've done them in some turbojets.  It's "a maneuver".  If the manufacturer has a reason they shouldn't be done, they are not shy about making it a limitation, "touch and go landings prohibited".  However, it doesn't necessarily follow that if they aren't prohibited that they are necessarily a good idea.

[Bartman]

Guess what I did this morning.... I went out and did a few Touch and Go's.

Felt good

Mmmm good

Good for me

Good for you

Did my fall of the year 6 Approaches with my CFII today. Mixed it up with full stops, TnGs, and missed approaches.

I even did an aborted takeoff......

[John Pleisse]

It isn't in the POH, PTS or FAA Pilot Handbook. Regular landings are safe, yet people still gear-em up. If you are in that big of a hurry, rent a Skyhawk. I do s-t-o-p and go's at night when the tower is closed, lots of them. This seems to suffice.

 

Whatever you do, have it straight in your mind before you do it. Triple GUMP and don't mess with flaps on touch and go's....this helps.

[chrisk]

Yes, my night landings are to a full stop, as required for night currency.  Also, by the time it is night in the summer (around 10pm), there is not any issue with waiting for traffic.

[1964-M20E]

I even did an aborted takeoff......

Hmmmmmm I've never done that even while getting my PPL.  I just might have to go out and try it.  Although I did do one for real once when the cabin door was not latched good but I was only up to about 50mph.

[N201MKTurbo]

I was sitting at the restaurant at the Pueblo CO airport and watched a United 737 do six touch and go's.

You don't see that very often!

FWIW, I'm a Mooney owner and a cheap bastard by definition. I'm not going to waste avgas taxing back if I don't have to.

[Hank]

Did you ask what should you do if you bounce a landing or get out of control during the flare?

I was taught if you bounce twice to do a go around, because the 3rd bounce will usually result in a prop strike.

Been there, done that, at night, 3000' of runway with dark trees at the end.

Didn't figure it out until the next day, and have not "stopped flying the plane in the flare" since. I'd finished my insurance dual almost three months previous, and was bringing the wife back from a Thanksgiving trip, and was glad to be home after 3+ hours en route and dodging a last-minute stadium TFR. How would I know from 338 nm away that there was a home game that night?

So I crammed in the throttle, stiff armed the yoke and hoped real hard! Cleared the trees, cleaned up (flaps up, play with trim, turn crosswind, reduce throttle, play with trim, etc.) and made a normal landing while chanting to myself, "figure it out later. Make a normal landing. Figure it out later . . . "

That was with only minimal 172 TnG practice. Now this would be a non-event, whether because I have 500+ more Mooney hours (probably ~25 at that time), or because I did enough TnG while earning my Instrument rating, including one on the checkride (1 TnG, 1 miss, 1 circle to land full stop).

[47U]

Bartman, on 09 Sept 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

I even did an aborted takeoff......

Not trying to hijack the thread to weird CFI methodology, but I made a take-off under the hood during primary instruction for the PPL. It was an early introduction to "the leans" and I accused him of playing with the trim on climb out as I chased the airspeed. It was early spring 1984, KCCY was the airport on their (very) wide crosswind grass strip, we were in a PA-22-150. Zolzinsky was his name. This was my second instructor, after my first instructor's ticket expired over the winter. That guy did a barrel roll in that Tri-Pacer, I think to see how I would react. Probably not a smart thing to do in a Tri-Pacer. But then, he was an ag pilot. Different times.

Touch and goes are a non event for me. But, I've got 6,000 feet of runway, so plenty of time to reconfigure the '63C. And I practice.

[carusoam]

By discussing this odd topic we get a feeling for how our Mooney family truly handles these things.

Somebody will have just learned about full flaps and full power in Mooneys is a great single arm workout, that may require more strength than they have in that one arm.

They probably won't say anything about it, but they will know about it before they need to...

I learned of this challenge after a flight instructor fatally lost control of a go-around in a Mooney just after I bought mine.

There was no MS available to even hear about these things. Nevermind debate the best way to handle them...

At least we aren't on the sad story of how Timmy doesn't want to fly an airplane because he is busy with the heli sim and trading futures on a gov't supported computer...???

Best regards,

-a-

[fantom]

I'm amazed any of us, much less our planes, ever survived before the internet, Google and MooneySpace.

[PMcClure]

I don't do touch in goes in my Ovation, or power on stalls or spins. I don't see the application/necessity of any of those maneuvers in everyday flying. I do practice low approaches and go arounds.

[N601RX]

There is much more skill to be learned by doing stop and go's on a 3000' runway than touch and go's the same runway.

[Robert C.]

...........Somebody will have just learned about full flaps and full power in Mooneys is a great single arm workout, that may require more strength than they have in that one arm...........

Best regards,

-a-

 

That's me....

 

I don't see it as a philosophical or multi-tasking challenge but for me in my Ovation it is purely a strength (and therefore control) issue. The trim just doesn't roll forward fast enough (electric or wheel). YMMV.

 

Robert

[Mooneymite]

There is much more skill to be learned by doing stop and go's on a 3000' runway than touch and go's .

 

1500' to stop, 1500' left to go?

[PMcClure]

There is much more skill to be learned by doing stop and go's on a 3000' runway than touch and go's .

This is my point. Flare to landing is not something that challenges me (most times). When I am practicing, I am working on approach speeds, touch down location and full stop distance. Adding 280hp after touch down with the end of the runway screaming at me is an unnecessary stress. I like to stop, estimate how much runway I used and try again. 

[WardHolbrook]

As a long-time CFI, I believe, when it comes to T&Gs, it totally depends upon the circumstances - they can be very appropriate and a good tool for achieving and maintaining proficiency and they can also be very inappropriate. The appropriateness is a function of aircraft complexity, available runway, the pilot's proficiency level, etc. They're usually acceptable in the simplest aircraft that require little or no changes in the aircraft configuration - think Piper J-3s, Colts, Aeronca Champs, Luscombes and aircraft like that. As you work your way up the complexity ladder and operate off of shorter runways then you've got other factors to consider. Throw in a transitioning or student pilot who is task saturated and it's seldom the best possible option. 

Personally, I seldom do them in complex singles or twins, I much prefer stop and goes if I've got the runway. I usually do touch and goes in simple airplanes. I've done T&Gs in jets, but you've got to have extremely long runways - you eat up a lot of runway while you're reconfiguring for takeoff. It just doesn't make a lot sense. That being said, I've spent a lot of time in Lincoln NE waiting for maintenance and had the chance to watch the military doing touch and goes in their 747s. I would have loved to have been able to see the choreography going on in those cockpits. 

[Mooneymite]

 I would have loved to have been able to see the choreography going on in those cockpits. 

 

I suspect the choreography is pretty much like a Mooney....flaps to takeoff, elevator trim back into the takeoff range, add power and go.  It's a maneuver....and not a very difficult one.

[ArtVandelay]

I suspect the choreography is pretty much like a Mooney....flaps to takeoff, elevator trim back into the takeoff range, add power and go.  It's a maneuver....and not a very difficult one.

The difficult part for a Mooney as compare to a Cessna for example, is the flaps don't have a preset, so you have to spend a few seconds waiting...I usually count to 3 instead of staring at the flap indicator.

Add to wishlist for new Mooney's, a heads up display with flap setting, airspeed, turn coordinator and AOA indicator

[PMcClure]

  It's a maneuver....and not a very difficult one.

I agree with this - and I am sure I can do one. But it is more challenging in some aircraft than others. I happily did T&G in  C172's and a D40 and then even in my M20F. Had some fun with them in my Bo. It is a different animal in the Ovation. I just get more out of practicing full stop landings and approaches and go arounds which is what applies to my mission.  

[Mooneymite]

The difficult part for a Mooney as compare to a Cessna for example, is the flaps don't have a preset, so you have to spend a few seconds waiting...I usually count to 3 instead of staring at the flap indicator.

Add to wishlist for new Mooney's, a heads up display with flap setting, airspeed, turn coordinator and AOA indicator

 

The B-727 did have a flap detent for flap settings, but the elevator trim was big Rube Goldberg type wheels on the pedestal sides....depending on how the landing pilot liked to trim for landing, it could take longer and more concentration to "spin-the-trim" than for all the flaps to go 15,15, green.     If you didn't get it all right, the takeoff warning horn would let you and everyone in the next three counties know.

 

Just a maneuver.

[John Pleisse]

Interestingly, I found several mentions of touch and go classification of operations in FAA guidelines for federally funded airport use. They basically said they had the right to control or limit the activity, mostly for traffic issues and noise abatement. So, if your drome got money for that runway extension or new T-hangars, you have to do what the FAA says. Now, I don't know of an airport anywhere that prohibits touch and go's, but somehow, the FAA found a way to keep whatever they want to limit or control available to them. Wasscilly wabbits.

[N601RX]

1500' to stop, 1500' left to go?

Strive for getting down and stopped in the 800 ft range. If you accomplish that then the takeoff is no different than the other discussions on here about operating from 2000 ft strips. Just make sure the ends are open.

[carusoam]

Ward,

How do we define task saturation?

I have easily experienced it during training.

It was easier to experience it after the first hour of flight training in the day.

I would suspect that a flight instructor will recognize a student suffering from it.

Like hypoxia, does the student not recognize he is task saturation challenged while it is going on?

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooneymite]

Task saturation?

 

Here's a great Pan Am training video on how to experience task saturation:  

 

[201er]

Interestingly, I found several mentions of touch and go classification of operations in FAA guidelines for federally funded airport use. They basically said they had the right to control or limit the activity, mostly for traffic issues and noise abatement. So, if your drome got money for that runway extension or new T-hangars, you have to do what the FAA says. Now, I don't know of an airport anywhere that prohibits touch and go's, but somehow, the FAA found a way to keep whatever they want to limit or control available to them. Wasscilly wabbits.