Retracting flaps after touchdown

[Mooneymite]

For my C, it's 75 MPH over then fence, less 5 per 300 lbs under gross. Can't imagine that putting in a more powerful engine will raise approach speed by 15 mph.

I could believe 78 MPH for an E. Maybe.

 

While approach speed over-the-fence has a bearing on rollout, it is the actual touchdown speed that most affects the rollout distance.

 

I think there is a lot of "technique variation" on speed after crossing the fence.

 

Some guys I fly with believe that the over-the-fence speed is what you hold into the flare; some believe that over the fence is where you pull the engine to idle and declerate below that 1.3 speed.

 

I've seen all sorts of techniques, but strangely, the segment between over the fence and touch down is rarely discussed with respect to speed.

 

Personally, unless it's gusty, I always touch down well below the 1.3 speed.  On my 'C', the trim indicator is about an index width (or so) above the takeoff setting and that seems to work out about right even for a balked landing.

 

I'd be interested in other views.

[Hank]

Gus,

That's where I put my trim before takeoff unless I'm heavy, and it's often where it is after landing. My old home field had no fence, I would usually go to Idle as soon as I knew I could clear the trees, and once clear would decelerate to the runway. Now I've got 5000' with lots of clear at each end, all the time, and it's throwing me off!

[Mooneymite]

 Now I've got 5000' with lots of clear at each end, all the time, and it's throwing me off!

 

 

They've never built an aircraft too powerful, or a runway that's too long!

 

Ain't it great?

[gsxrpilot]

I only land at 90 when landing in an element formation landing where we are two abreast. Its without flaps and on long wide runways. This is standard by the book procedure. We landed 35 of us at Oshkosh this way. And my short body Mooney lands just fine at this speed. And yes I can hold the nose wheel off and ride the mains for 1000 to 1500 ft. It might not make much difference in stopping distance. But it's fun and I'm not using break pads.

[carusoam]

Paul,

If you are 'Rocket',

Shouldn't you be flying a Rocket?

Isn't it time to move up the ladder?

Just wondering,

-a-

[scottfromiowa]

-Quote from Cowboy-I only land at 90 when landing in an element formation landing where we are two abreast. Its without flaps and on long wide runways. This is standard by the book procedure. We landed 35 of us at Oshkosh this way. And my short body Mooney lands just fine at this speed. And yes I can hold the nose wheel off and ride the mains for 1000 to 1500 ft. It might not make much difference in stopping distance. But it's fun and I'm not using break pads.

[scottfromiowa]

FYI new Mooney pilots: landing a short body Mooney at 90 (mph or knots) is NOT "by the book procedure".

Do what you want, but don't continue to tell me/rationalize to me...I am done.

[Andy95W]

FYI new Mooney pilots: landing a short body Mooney at 90 (mph or knots) is NOT "by the book procedure".

Do what you want, but don't continue to tell me/rationalize to me...I am done.

He's talking ONLY about the Mooney Caravan mass arrival into Oshkosh. He NEVER said he landed at 90 as a normal procedure.

[aaronk25]

I don't understand why landing a Mooney seems to be such a complicated event. I also don't know how one would do anything in the cockpit without making a positive decision to do so? I generally raise the flaps immediately on touchdown, turn off the fuel pump, and flick the radio to ground all before reaching the taxiway. This is also while applying full back pressure on the yoke for aerodynamic breaking as well. None of it is complicated and all are easily done positively and with deliberate action.

I couldn't actually tell you what speed I land at, unless I'm in formation and then it's 90. But then we never use flaps and the runway is very long.

Anyway, it works for me.

So I'm curious....if your looking for aerodynamic braking wouldn't it be best to leave the flaps down, to slow you up instead of retracting them immediately on landing?

As ward alluded to I think there is a lot of guys landing faster than they should and doing this flap retraction deal trying to get it to "settle down". If you hold it off the ground until it quits flying it is, well done flying....

Just don't get it...retracting flaps landing on strips greater than 2000ft? 5,000ft of runway in front of you and were retracting flaps.....hmm.

[Wakeup]

I'm having a great night reading these posts while sipping whiskey too funny

[scottfromiowa]

I'm having a great night reading these posts while sipping whiskey too funny

He's talking ONLY about the Mooney Caravan mass arrival into Oshkosh. He NEVER said he landed at 90 as a normal procedure.

No $&@t? Wow, thanks for straightening that out.....

[gsxrpilot]

It's so hard to get across the intended sentiment, on an Internet post, and I'm certainly not a gifted writer.  I have complete respect and appreciation for all of you on this forum.  It was all of you here on Mooneyspace that convinced me the Mooney was the correct first airplane for me.  And you were right.

 

The nickname or call-sign 'Rocket' was given to me by the elders in the Mooney Caravan.  As you might know, one never choses their own call-sign.  And it's certainly not meant as a complement.  (That only happens in the movies... cue Top Gun theme here...)  But rather poking fun at my 180hp M20C carrying all the speed mods.  Lipstick on a pig?  I do fly one of the slowest Mooneys in the Money Caravan.

 

I will stick by my belief that there is never only one right way to do anything, including landing a Mooney, the POH not withstanding.  At the first briefing for the Mooney Caravan training clinic, we were given the speed and configuration parameters for the formation flight.  We were all shocked at the 90 kts speed over the numbers.  But were also just as pleasantly surprised at the ease of the landing at that speed.

 

Let me also say that going through the Mooney Caravan training was a huge step forward in the development of my stick and rudder skills.  They guys that teach the Caravan training are very serious and highly skilled.  There is no funny business with this group.  I am a much better pilot for having trained with this group.  I just did an IPC this weekend and have never been so steady on an ILS Approach.  My CFII complemented me on all the practice approaches I must have flown.  The truth is I flew one, the rest was just Mooney Caravan practice.  And if you're going to Oshkosh next year, consider flying in the Caravan.  It's got to be the easiest and safest way to fly to Oshkosh.  Much better than running the gauntlet that is the Fisk Arrival.

 

I apologize if I offend anyone in this group.  That's never my intention.  But I'll agree with Wakeup that the reading of these threads is good entertainment.

[scottfromiowa]

Before Mooneyspace you had MAPA (that does not discuss landing procedures) or much of any flight ops, so you had a POH and word of mouth. Yes, there are a bunch of ways to operate a Mooney. Are there absolutes?

I am a recreational flyer. I do enjoy my MOONEY. I am proud to own and operate one, but I fly to get maximum enjoyment with family and friends once I get where I am going. I am not looking for thrills, to push the envelope while in my plane, whether solo or with others.

You train and you take calculated risks. Fine. You are comfortable raising flaps on the runway. Fine.

I think landing a Mooney at 90(mph or knots) is an unsafe and unnecessary practice. You do not. Fine.

I play golf, tennis, etc. FOR FUN. I fly a Mooney to get from point A to B fast and efficiently.

You do formation flying. Fine.

I did not find your posts offensive. BUT, if I was coming to this site this thread would have taught me:

The best practice is to land (in ground effect/flare) at the slowest speed for my planes weight. That learning these speeds for my model is important. That flaps are a way to land slower safely. That controlling airspeed, Landing slower in a Mooney is more critical than some other airframes. That mastering my bird is being able to use less runway by landing slower, using ground effect to slow my bird until IT wants to land and then landing on my mains and holding it off. Save my brakes and do not ?$&@ with my radios flaps and other $&@? Until I am clear of the active...then when I gear-up I won't shut down the runway...

That formation flying is fun and with a lot of practice can be done safely...and some pilots like the challenge and internal rewards this brings...as well as making them a "better" pilot. And that is fine too. To each his own. Cowboy up...

[scottfromiowa]

When preparing to make a right turn in a car. Would you ever use the left signal? Is using the right turn signal (whether hand signal or using blinker) for a right turn the one "right" way to signal your intentions?

[scottfromiowa]

Of course many do not signal at all...and nothing happens...most of the time. Best practices are "best" for a reason. Not the only way, but the better way. Proven with time. Coming from a former no flap lander that did not use take-off flaps and still retracted flaps...on occasion (gasp) before exiting the runway.

[scottfromiowa]

Thank you Mooneyspace for educating me and continuing to make me a better pilot.

[Houman]

Wow, who would have thought a simple question would create this much huppla on the forum... I know my POH says to retract flaps only after exiting the runway and taxing, but I was just curious about the other Mooney pilotes here and their standard modus operandi... I still follow the POH, but I might try it once or twice with my instructor if he agrees to see how short I can stop. I will of course ask him to slap me hard if I try to reach the gear instead of the flaps, although the gear is much higer in the dash and requires 2 actions ( pull out and push up )...

 

Thanks !!!

[fantom]

Wow, who would have thought a simple question would create this much huppla on the forum...

 

Better not ask about using CamGuard

[Marauder]

Better not ask about using CamGuard

Or Garmin products.

[Marauder]

Or Garmin products.

Or anything, if you don't want to elicit a contrary point of view...

[scottfromiowa]

I enjoy huppla and hubbub...for the record.

[aaronk25]

Ha...so one other thought...anyone bought brake pads lately? So if I get this right were lifting the flaps up trying to put more weight on the wheels so we can grenade the brakes after landing right? I mean the purpose is to put weight on the wheels right so we can jam on the brakes?

Sounds like a lot of expensive pads/rotors. Besides that all that extra brake dust to clean up that gets all over the wheel pants rotors and contaminates the wheel bearings?

And while your lighting the brakes up with 5000 ft of runway ahead of you hopefully you don't light them up to hard and flat spot one or both of your expensive good year flight custom 3s...

Stupidest idea of 2014....sorry for stirring that pot!

[Mooneymite]

Or anything, if you don't want to elicit a contrary point of view...

.

 

I strongly disagree!

 

[Marauder]

. I strongly disagree!

Well! I disagree with your disagree! So there!

[Hank]

Ha...so one other thought...anyone bought brake pads lately? So if I get this right were lifting the flaps up trying to put more weight on the wheels so we can grenade the brakes after landing right? I mean the purpose is to put weight on the wheels right so we can jam on the brakes?

Sounds like a lot of expensive pads/rotors. Besides that all that extra brake dust to clean up that gets all over the wheel pants rotors and contaminates the wheel bearings?

And while your lighting the brakes up with 5000 ft of runway ahead of you hopefully you don't light them up to hard and flat spot one or both of your expensive good year flight custom 3s...

Stupidest idea of 2014....sorry for stirring that pot!

 

I've only been raising my flaps after landing for seven years. Haven't bought brake pads yet--are they expen$ive?

 

In the same time, I've had approximately 4 landings with 5000' of runway in front of me. My home field until a month ago was 3001' long, with trees at both ends that obstructed both the REIL lights and often the numbers until short final. But at least two J's flew there for annuals & maintenance, and there were several Bo's and a twin Cessna based there, so it must not be dangerously tight. I rarely brake hard at all, but transferring weight from wings to gear does make her slow down more and requires less braking.

 

Wheel bearings--I've replaced two, one main and the nose wheel, which can't get "contaminated" by brake dust. Wait, those are sealed bearings, I think, it's been several years, I don't recall.