Re-maufactured a Mooney like new.

[jamesgandy]

I bought The Dugosh Company as of May this year, and combined it with Kerrville Maintenance and move them to Terminal 1 at Kerrville Airport Kerv.

What I wanted to know was that if I bought an older Mooney Plane with no accidents, and made it like new again what Mooney would you like what Model?

 

[Mooneymite]

Without a doubt, a J.

 

For the bottom feeders, a C.

 

These two models are the quintessential Mooneys.

 

(Disclaimer:  I own a C)

[ArtVandelay]

Seems to me the 231 is the sweet spot from a business perspective:

You have a little more upside, the 231 carries around some bad press, so upgrading it to the 252 engine would be first step.

I think the margins are too low for the pre-J models.

[pinerunner]

Probably a J. I'd love to see some E's and C's get some TLC but doubt you'd be able to sell pristine E for what a J would go for. Cessna 180 used to be great rebuild project since they have a niche as a great workhorse bush plane. They would go for a lot more than 182 and many parts are the same. My dad made some money doing that. I'd be interested to see someone make money rebuilding Mooneys but I wouldn't bet on it. Maybe setting up for a slick operation rebuilding the wing like new for a not too scarey price. Like replacing that rear spar that got its own thread a month ago.

 

 

[M20F-1968]

I purchased a 1968 F that had been in a hangar for 26 years and did a total rebuild.  It is now a modern airplane, created from an F model airframe, with numerous Mooney upgrades and updates retrofitting changes that Mooney had done over the years as their planes evolved utilizing a DER's blessing.  It now is a modern looking Mooney, with glass panel, long range tanks, numerous airframe and engine upgrades, an Ovation interior and glass panel/modern avionics. 

 

There is utility in there airframes that is not possible with the newer models.  Specifically, landing on smaller airports/grass strips and economy that is unparalleled.  Mine is a 160-180 knot airplane (depending on altitude) at 13 gallons/hr (less LOP), 980 lb useful load,  1600 mile range. 

 

When people say they want a J model back in production, I think it is a plane such as mine that they are suggesting (albeit mine has manual gear and hydraulic flaps which many consider an :improvement" over the electric versions.

 

John Breda

[carusoam]

James,

Welcome aboard!

There are several different models of Mooneys that are good for different reasons.

The B and C are well appreciated as an entry level. The A and D have been mostly updated to approximate the B and C.

The F and J are greatly appreciated for speed and efficiency for four seats.

The G is very similar, it has space for four, but slightly less power. Good for hauling around lower altitudes.

The K is where turbo power comes into it's full glory. High altitude flight, oxygen levels, and FIKI become important to you.

The L is more of a challenge for ordinary people. The original motor supplier has cut ties with aviation

The M is a king-size version of the K

The R is a king-size version of the J, bigger and faster! (My favorite)

The S is similar to the O, and is the basis of the TN

The E, I saved for last, is greatly appreciated by the retiring or retired pilot.

Rebuilding a plane can be very expensive. One does this, most often, for their own use.

First they define the type of mission that they fly most often and then they select the plane that meets that mission.

What do you have in mind?

Were you considering rebuilding planes as a commercial enterprise? There is plenty of discussion on how that could be done. It would require a company familiar with Mooney maintenance, economics, suppliers and customers.

Did you say you bought Dugosh?

If you did, did Ronnie come with the deal?

Please tell us more?

Best regards,

-a-

[stevedietrich]

Either one of the manual gear models   for simplicity   or

 

the 231 with the 252 conversion 

 

231 airframes are really inexpensive (unfortunately)

[chrisk]

Seems to me the 231 is the sweet spot from a business perspective:

You have a little more upside, the 231 carries around some bad press, so upgrading it to the 252 engine would be first step.

I think the margins are too low for the pre-J models.

 

I too think the sweet spot would be 231 to 252 conversions.  Maybe the trophy conversion STC can be had?

 

As for re-finishing without a major modification.  I think 252's with a gross weight upgrade and J's would be the best bet. 

 

But from a business perspective, can you get $175K+ for a refurbished 25 year old J, or K?   A 0 time prop, engine, new auto pilot, WAAS GPS, ADSB-out, Paint, Interior, might cost 150K, before you even acquire a plane .

[Mooneymite]

 

But from a business perspective, can you get $175K+ for a refurbished 25 year old J, or K?   A 0 time prop, engine, new auto pilot, WAAS GPS, ADSB-out, Paint, Interior, might cost 150K, before you even acquire a plane .

 

Yes....just what I was thinking.

 

I love the idea of a source of "like new" Mooneys", but when I think of the hurdles of cost competition.....

 

There are just too many Mooneys out there that are in excellent shape selling for so much less than anyone could remanufacture it.

 

I think there IS a market for such, but it is small.

[Marauder]

Where there may be an opportunity is for those of us who own a decent airframe but would need to take it to multiple place to have the interior, exterior and mechnical all done by different shops. I believe there are a few shops out there that do this for some airframes, but not sure I have seen one for Mooney.

[ChrisH]

231, +1 if you get permission to use the rocket stc and provide a rocket upgrade option again.

[Bennett]

I think some of the Mooneyspace members know the story of N335BB, a 1983 J model that I bought several years ago, and decided to bring her as close to a new J as possible.  LASAR virtually rebuilt the aircraft, replacing most of the wear parts, and in the process, bringing the airframe into as close to new as possible. This was step One. Well executed, and I, in all honesty, suggested that they create a "Remanufactured by LASAR" plate for the airplane. The engine only had about 300 hours SMOH, and so only minor things were replaced as auxiliary units to the engine itself.  Step Two was to totally rebuild the interior. This was accomplished by Tim Hallock, Aircraft Designs, at Pine Mountain Lake airport. This was a full carbon fiber / aircraft honeycomb / leather everywhere rebuild that far exceeds anything Mooney ever built. Step Three was a complete new custom metal panel, with multiple glass screens that are very much state of the art, installed by Executive Air Maintenance in Scottsdale, and then in step Four, I had the aircraft stipped and painted by ArtCraft in Santa Maria - custom everything in the design, airbrushed stripes, five colors, of which four are metallics. 

 

Now this meant that I had the aircraft out of service for many months, and that I was flying (generally commercial), or driving between Scottsdale, Santa Maria, Clear Lake, and Pine Mountain Lake (Groveland).  Lots of coordination between vendors, and working around time constraints for everyone.  At times a bit frustrating, but ultimately I achieved what I set out to accomplish - a virtually "new" M20J Mooney.  Two major points here: One, I have a fully customized aircraft in every way, far more customization than the factory could possibly offer, and Two, the total cost for this project was well under $200,000. This may sound like a lot of Dollars for a 30 year old Mooney, but could the factory sell new Js for as low as $500,000 -$600,000?  I doubt it. I also doubt if a new 201 would fly any faster, have better avionics, or more ramp appeal.

 

I wish you luck in your remanufacturing venture, but I will be very candid here.  I spent many months visiting all the vendors I chose to work with (except LASAR who has maintained my Mooneys for over 30 years), interviewed prior customers, and looked at sample of their workmanship. I believe I found vendors that were at the very top of their fields for each step of the process, and I don't feel I compromised anywhere. I wonder if a single source for doing all of this, to that quality, could be found.  To be fair, I doubt if many pilots would be so willing to spend what it takes to achieve this level of quality.  I'm old now (approaching 80), and this is likely my last aircraft, so economic logic is not paramount for me.  The question might well be: "what price point would most pilots be willing to pay for a "remanufactured" 201?"

 

The 20K 231/252 would also be good candidates for "remanufacturing", with little difference in costs outside the engine. If I were younger, and still flying regularly to Alaska and the Caribbean, I might well have started with a Rocket conversion, but that aircraft did not meet my current flying needs.  Hard to beat a J for low fuel consumption, with reasonable speeds, and relatively low maintenance costs. 

[KSMooniac]

I too think a J or K would be the best candidates for such a refurbishment.  I wonder, however, if it can make economic sense for a shop to do these on a speculation basis.  You have a potential leg-up on anyone else since you're close to the factory for parts & engineering support if needed, and close to AeroComfort for expert interior renewal.  You're also close to All American Aircraft for marketing & coordination with potential customers.  Perhaps there are still former Mooney employees/experts in the area that could be hired for such a project.  Those are all good reasons to consider it in my opinion.

 

I could envision Dugosh becoming a 1-stop shop for such a plan.  You would have to really know your costs, though, before starting down this road on spec, or at least have a very knowledgeable and understanding customer (like Bennett) before starting one.  Runout original J and K airframes are starting to dip into the 60K range or less, so how much will you have to add to modernize one inside and out?  Perhaps you can get some good avionics deals partnering with a shop to increase sales volume or bundle a full panel together.  It might reduce costs to work on 2-3 planes in parallel if you have the capacity...that way the workers would have a task like changing windows or engine installation and could do it more efficiently after doing it the first time.

 

If you do one on spec, it might be a decent idea if you can find a nice deal on the airframe, and then get it in the shop for the workers to work on when they otherwise don't have anything to do.  This might never happen, though!    

[Mooneymite]

Question: How would Mooney's new owners view a shop that remanufactures Mooneys and then competes for buyers?

Seems like the pool of potential Mooney buyers is small enough already.

[ArtVandelay]

Question:  How would the new Mooney owners view a shop that remanufactures Mooneys and then competes for buyers?

 

Seems like the pool of potential Mooney buyers is small enough already.

Thats why J & K are good candidates, they don't compare with the new planes.  The K 231s have exceptionally low prices.  And the finish product would have to be in the 150K or less, so don't compete with planes on price either.

[jamesgandy]

Thanks Guys.

 

I have the answer now I think, it is going to be a 252 Mooney a K model, serial # 25-1000 and up, a Garrett Turbo engine TSIO 360 MB Continental Engine. Like new again with paint, new interiors, new avionics Garmin 500 and a Garmin 750 for GPS, also auto pilot what type unknown as yet.

Going for $325k.

 

[jamesgandy]

James,

Welcome aboard!

There are several different models of Mooneys that are good for different reasons.

The B and C are well appreciated as an entry level. The A and D have been mostly updated to approximate the B and C.

The F and J are greatly appreciated for speed and efficiency for four seats.

The G is very similar, it has space for four, but slightly less power. Good for hauling around lower altitudes.

The K is where turbo power comes into it's full glory. High altitude flight, oxygen levels, and FIKI become important to you.

The L is more of a challenge for ordinary people. The original motor supplier has cut ties with aviation

The M is a king-size version of the K

The R is a king-size version of the J, bigger and faster! (My favorite)

The S is similar to the O, and is the basis of the TN

The E, I saved for last, is greatly appreciated by the retiring or retired pilot.

Rebuilding a plane can be very expensive. One does this, most often, for their own use.

First they define the type of mission that they fly most often and then they select the plane that meets that mission.

What do you have in mind?

Were you considering rebuilding planes as a commercial enterprise? There is plenty of discussion on how that could be done. It would require a company familiar with Mooney maintenance, economics, suppliers and customers.

Did you say you bought Dugosh?

If you did, did Ronnie come with the deal?

Please tell us more?

Best regards,

-a-

Ronnie did not come with the Dugosh deal. Bought Dugosh phone number, name, and inventory, I mean the good inventory. I really like to build the K model Mooney with the Turbo engine. What do you think?

[carusoam]

Turbo falls outside of my mission, as does FIKI and O2.

Nice to have, but all cost compared to the use I would get out of it.

I prefer the previously loved, N/A, high HP, factory built planes...

Many of our turbo/FIKI guys have them as a means of improving reliable travel, used for work related travel.

The customer is educated in aviation(professional), instrument rated and/or over flies mountains a lot.

Overall, a smaller portion of the GA pilot community.

Try to learn how to generate a poll here at MooneySpace. You can test price points and get preferences for avionics and things like that.

You have a interesting possibility. There is a customer that want's a like-new plane but cannot or will not afford the new one.

There are a small number of owners here that we're fortunate to buy new from the factory.

If an F104 /Starfighter is on your resume, the finance minister at your house will approve this kind of spending.

Otherwise you may need to include parachute in the airframe?

What brings you to this opportunity? What type of aviation background do you have?

You must have a strong heart.

Best regards,

-a-

[Z W]

I think at $325k I'm buying a cheap Acclaim, or a G3/G5 Cirrus, before a "remanufactured" 252.  And I like my 252 conversion.

 

I would say that whatever you do needs to come out at a price significantly below a G3 Cirrus, Ovation, or Acclaim.  Otherwise your buyers are going to head for the newer technology and model year.  Mooney quit building the K model for a reason.  Piston single buyers with lots of money want bigger, faster, roomier planes with 310 HP out front.  Preferably with a parachute attached, these days.

 

That isn't to say you couldn't sell a "remanufactured" 252 for a price between a normal 252 and those planes.  You might get $200k or maybe even $250k out of one, from the right buyer.  But your buyer pool is going to be pretty small.  Go much above that and they'll buy something else.  Maybe even a late model Encore.

 

I hope you find a way to make it work out.

[Danb]

I may be based on some of the comments one of the ones that bought new (my case a few months old airplane). And considered

Rare or different , not really. I have a Bravo GX (long body, G-1000 panel).. You mentioned converting a 252 for say $325,000.

In my situation why would I spend say $325,000... When a newer more refined avionics and all the new features Mooney offers.,I doubt I could get $325,000 for my Pristine low time a Garmin 1000 equipped, long range tanks, svt on and on ...basically I am not in anyway knocking short body K Models ( which I think are great planes) but $325,000 is way out of the cost ballpark. You could save you a lot of work and buy mine (oh not for sale). Not being a wise ass but cost benefit needs to be the main issue...A J model...best plane ever made by Mooney should be the one upgraded...but south of $200'000 or in my humble opinion you would have a beautiful piece of inventory gathering dust!

[chrisk]

Thanks Guys.

 

I have the answer now I think, it is going to be a 252 Mooney a K model, serial # 25-1000 and up, a Garrett Turbo engine TSIO 360 MB Continental Engine. Like new again with paint, new interiors, new avionics Garmin 500 and a Garmin 750 for GPS, also auto pilot what type unknown as yet.

Going for $325k.

 

I may be based on some of the comments one of the ones that bought new (my case a few months old airplane). And considered

Rare or different , not really. I have a Bravo GX (long body, G-1000 panel).. You mentioned converting a 252 for say $325,000.

In my situation why would I spend say $325,000... When a newer more refined avionics and all the new features Mooney offers.,I doubt I could get $325,000 for my Pristine low time a Garmin 1000 equipped, long range tanks, svt on and on ...basically I am not in anyway knocking short body K Models ( which I think are great planes) but $325,000 is way out of the cost ballpark. You could save you a lot of work and buy mine (oh not for sale). Not being a wise ass but cost benefit needs to be the main issue...A J model...best plane ever made by Mooney should be the one upgraded...but south of $200'000 or in my humble opinion you would have a beautiful piece of inventory gathering dust!

 

I think you are right on target with these comments.   The most expensive Bravo on controller is $289K.  A 2009 Ovation is $350K, with the most expensive in the US being $390K.   The most expensive J is $185K.   I too think $325K is a stretch for a 252.

[KSMooniac]

This has been re-hashed many times over the years I've been following Mooneys and since my purchase 7.5 years ago.  The reason why Mooney isn't building J's and K's any longer has to do with what the market dictated AFTER costs spiraled way up into the stratosphere.  Mooney's cost to build a 2014 Acclaim or a 2014 Encore would be nearly the same... perhaps $10-20k less for the K.  The only difference is the smaller engine (<$10k difference in OEM pricing) and a shorter fuselage (<$2k in material cost difference, same labor cost basically).  Avionics and Autopilots would be the same.  A modern buyer shopping for a new plane that can spend $700k will 99 times out of 100 opt for an Acclaim at $700k vs. an Encore at $680k.  The price difference at that level is peanuts, and who wouldn't opt for more power?  

 

That same phenomenon is why the Eagle failed in the market when the Ovation delivered a lot more performance for just a little more money, and why the Lean Machine J's also failed.  Once you're above a certain threshold, the buyers will opt for the more powerful and more loaded airplane every time.  Similarly SR-22's outsell SR-20's 5:1 or greater last I checked.

 

The arena that most of us on this board operate in is much different.  $20k for a new buyer is just noise, but for someone looking to buy a vintage E or F, it is a huge difference.  Most of us also care about minimizing operating costs, while a new buyer of a $700k Acclaim probably wouldn't sneeze at 20 GPH like I would since my budget supports 9 GPH.  

 

Having said all that, it appears Mr. Gandy wants to try to fit into a much different market that is in between the lower end (where I live) and the new market.  There may be some demand there that is currently underserved... I don't know though.  It certainly isn't in my near future.  If a nice K model can be delivered for half the price of a new Ovation or Acclaim with modern avionics and autopilot, someone that wants lower operating costs and more flexibility with upgrades might be very interested in such a plane.  A G500 or Aspen setup could be specified, and most importantly, that could be upgraded later to something else if/when there is an option.  In all likelihood, the G1000 planes will be absolutely stuck with what is the panel right now, and I wouldn't like that as a long term owner.

 

One more recommendation, if a 252 K is chosen, make sure to add the Encore conversion/upgrade to get the gross weight increase!  That makes it a far more useful plane. 

 

Please keep us updated, and welcome aboard!

[jackn]

By the time I'm done, I'll prob have spent a good portion of that amount. In the end I have what I feel is the perfect plane for me. Not only does it fit my mission, flys great,(it's not a mini acclaim),but I happen to like the way it looks. Maybe IndyTim will have spent a good portion as well.

[jamesgandy]

Seems to me the 231 is the sweet spot from a business perspective:

You have a little more upside, the 231 carries around some bad press, so upgrading it to the 252 engine would be first step.

I think the margins are too low for the pre-J models.

Your right.

[ArtVandelay]

I think you are right on target with these comments.   The most expensive Bravo on controller is $289K.  A 2009 Ovation is $350K, with the most expensive in the US being $390K.   The most expensive J is $185K.   I too think $325K is a stretch for a 252.

That J has been on the market forever, I think the bravo as well. 

As I mention before, I think you need to keep your costs to $150K, sell them for $199K, you could do this if you didn't totally redo everything, only what was required.

Of course I'm not a huge fan of the glass cockpits, so I'm not your target consumer.

I wish you luck.