Ahhhhhh! Relief. Fine wires.

[Mooneymite]

The last 30-40 hours, I've been dealing with a plug that kept fouling.  Each time I did a mag check, one of the plugs on the left mag was causing an excessive drop and roughness.  A high power burn always cleared it, but then after takeoff, a "little roughness" would set in again.  Hard leaning, then enricheing would smooth things out, but it was getting to be a nuisance.

 

I only had about 400 hours on the plugs.  I tried inspecting, cleaning, gap-checking, etc.  Each time, just a waste of time.  No long-term improvement.  It was one of the four plugs, but which one?

 

So.....I bit the bullet, went down to Aircraft Spruce and bought eight Tempest fine-wires.

 

Magic!  All is well again.  And I can lean further before the roughness begins.  (O-360).

 

When I removed the Champions, I looked a little closer.  And look what I found!  I'd been paying all my attention to the "business end" of the plugs, but should have been looking at the other end!

 

The burn mark inside says I'd had a spark jumping where it wasn't supposed to be.

 

I didn't enjoy buying those fine-wires, but the improved operation is making me feel better about it.

[carusoam]

Mite,

Send your whole post including the photos to champion's customer service.

See what the response is?

Best regards,

-a-

[jkb458]

I installed Tempest fine wire plugs on my IO-360 two years ago. My experience is similar to yours regarding the improvement in leaning and smoothness of operation. I'm very pleased with the Tempest fine wire plugs.

[orionflt]

You guys should not have done that!!!!

I have been debating fine wires for my O-360 to improve ignition performance and to improve my EGT spread, now with your preps I am going to have to pull the trigger....I only have a few hundred hours on my current auto lite plugs, but I know they could perform better.

Brian

[Bob_Belville]

Could have told you. Actually, I probably did. I switched to fine wires shortly after buying this plane. I had done the same with my first M20E 30 years ago and I knew the switch would fix plug loading and starting issues. @ $50 ea. the Tempest fine wires are a bargain. 

[drapo]

My experience with my first Champion REM38E plugs was similar, so I made the switch but went with the Champion REM37BY, and it cured my problem...

[PMcClure]

Same experience here, but I only changed the bottom plugs on my 550g.

[Mooneymite]

If you can find them at $50/each, jump on them!

 

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/temptestplugs12.php?clickkey=38248

[MooneyBob]

You guys should not have done that!!!!

I have been debating fine wires for my O-360 to improve ignition performance and to improve my EGT spread, now with your preps I am going to have to pull the trigger....I only have a few hundred hours on my current auto lite plugs, but I know they could perform better.

Brian

Same here. I am ready to pull the trigger now. What exact model number of the plugs I need for my 1977 M20J with IO 360 A3B6 engine? Thanks.

[N601RX]

It looks like they have been increasing the price regularly every few months for the last 2 years.

[orionflt]

Same here. I am ready to pull the trigger now. What exact model number of the plugs I need for my 1977 M20J with IO 360 A3B6 engine? Thanks.

UREM38S

[MooneyBob]

UREM38S

Thanks

[Bob_Belville]

$50 is what I paid Spruce... but it was in May 2012. I've had no reason to check current pricing. Looks like they're now $70! 40& in less than 2 years.

[KSMooniac]

Free market at work... Champion is putting out crap that doesn't last now, Tempest capitalized with a better and cheaper product, got popular, and now the price is going up.  I think I paid ~$48/each for mine a few years ago.  I had 2 Champion massives fail me with less than 300 hours, including one that went completely dead at a fuel stop.  Tempests went in soon after.

[MooneyBob]

My engine is a little rough when taxiing around 1000 RPM. I was told it could be spark plugs. I am going to change them even if it is going to cost me few hundreds buck now. I think I would pay more for them and everything else including hotel overnight stay if I got stuck somewhere because of bad spark plug.

[BigTex]

Yep... Welcome to the club!

[MooneyBob]

Does it make any sense to use different top and bottom ones. Something like top massive and bottom fine wire? Would it be even good for engine? Just curios.

[jetdriven]

Mite,

Send your whole post including the photos to champion's customer service.

See what the response is?

Best regards,

-a-

Their story is LOP and operator error causes them to go bad. They claim their process hasn't changed and they are world class etc.

[KSMooniac]

Their story is LOP and operator error causes them to go bad. They claim their process hasn't changed and they are world class etc.

 

And their spokesman might be the spawn of Jay Carney and Baghdad Bob!  

 

Their is far too much anecdotal evidence out there over the last few years to believe nothing has changed...  My plane came with Champion massives that had over 900 hours on them when I got it.  I thought I'd be smart and replace them with new Champions...and within a year after that I had Tempests.

[carusoam]

They don't have an engineer that could fix this manufacturing disaster in a day?

Best regards,

-a-

[philiplane]

Tempest prices only went up because they ran out of the iridium wire they had bought at the old price. Iridium wire is one of the world's most expensive materials, at around $1000 a pound.

[DonMuncy]

I haven't kept up; is there any difference between Lycoming and Continentals regarding failure with massive Champions.

Back when I was racing sports cars, Champion furnished me free plugs, so I became an advocate.

A few years ago, I replaced my K's plugs with massive Champions, because mine were worn. I have not had any problems that I'm aware of.

I'm not defending Champion or saying they are good. Just reporting what I have seen. But from what I am reading, when it comes time to replace, or if I perceive a problem with one or more, I anticipate going over to Tempest. I'm still torn on whether I would go with massives or fine wires.

[KSMooniac]

Don, Parker W reported a noticeable difference in operational smoothness and LOP-ability (to create a term) with his former 252.  Perhaps he'll chime in and give you the details.

 

As far as running Champions now, I would make sure you know how to interpret a dead or failing plug on the engine monitor, and carry a spare kit with a couple known-good plugs, washers, anti-seize, and the tools to change one on the road.  I got lucky when my first one failed at a fuel stop... there was a mechanic still there,and he loaned me tools and happened to have a new plug in stock which I happily purchased for $30.  It turned into a <30 minute delay vs. getting stuck.  I started carrying a kit right after that episode!  (I've told the story before, but my engine monitor diagnosed the failure immediately, and saved me a lot of trouble-shooting.)

 

Best practice when checking the plugs at annual or more frequently is to look thoroughly for signs of arcing.  Measure the resistance between the center electrode and the conductor, and if it is greater than 5k Ohms then chuck it.

[PMcClure]

I haven't kept up; is there any difference between Lycoming and Continentals regarding failure with massive Champions.

Back when I was racing sports cars, Champion furnished me free plugs, so I became an advocate.

A few years ago, I replaced my K's plugs with massive Champions, because mine were worn. I have not had any problems that I'm aware of.

I'm not defending Champion or saying they are good. Just reporting what I have seen. But from what I am reading, when it comes time to replace, or if I perceive a problem with one or more, I anticipate going over to Tempest. I'm still torn on whether I would go with massives or fine wires.

Don - i was amazed at the information I found on Champions. Always used Champions in my cars and anything with an engine in the past. But wow - they really turned to crap in the aviation world. After struggling with successive issues on relatively new Champion plugs - a set of fine wires in the bottom made like a new engine. I will replace the tops next time with fine wire. 

[Nemesis]

1980 K model, Cont TSIO-360

 

When I bought this plane 3 years ago I put in all new Champion massives. Recently, I had a poor performing (or fouled) bottom plug on my #2 cyl for a month or two. However, if I did just a bit longer run up, the plug seemed to clear and be fine for that days flying. I have never had a fouled plug before or one that simply would not fire, so the longer run up routine was definitely not a fix for me.

 

The only question that my mechanic asked over the phone was how many hours on the plugs. I told him 300 to 350. He said that the plugs have likely reached the end of their useful life. The actual number was 310 hours. Holy crap, useful life, 300 hours!! The plugs in my Mercedes SL500 were in that car since 1998 and had 130,000 miles on them when they were changed last year. I bought the car used several years ago and had no idea that they were the original plugs. They finally started misfiring when the center electrode was worn down flush with the insulator. I got lucky and had no other ignition problems. Now, I know a car engine and an airplane engine are very different and operate at very different temperatures, environs, and power levels, but why in the world do my $7 plugs outperform my $28 plugs by some 800% or 900% (assuming 50 mph in the car) ??

 

I was there and installed these plugs when new, and at every annual when removed, cleaned, and re-installed. None has ever been dropped or mistreated in any way. He was exactly right in that the resistance readings were off the chart, up to 16.5 k on the offending plug in cyl #2. I found no unusual arcing or cracking, it was simply that the current removable resistor design used by Champion stinks.

 

I stayed with massive plugs but of course went with Tempest. I never had any fouling problems until this high resistance problem showed up, so for me I think the massives are just fine. When removed, all of the electrodes were of the normal tan color so I don't appear to have any problems with oil fouling or anything like that. I have high hopes with the enclosed resistor design of the Tempest plugs that I will likely get a much better useful life out of them.

 

Dave