Mooney Most Bang for Your Buck?

[cocolos]

Hi All,

What would be the most affordable Mooney for a budget from 20k-35k? are there any Mooney's worthwhile for that price or would be better to get up to 50k until I start seeing some good options?

[jetdriven]

You can buy a 35K airplane and put another 50K in it or buy a 60K airpland and fly it.

[cocolos]

So something like this probably has some serious problems not worthwhile?

[FloridaMan]

Several months ago there was a "C" model being liquidated by an FBO that lost their contract. I think it was going for around $29k and was possibly a decent airplane. I'd say you should be able to get a sound "F" with a dated panel, mid-time engine and possibly a minor speed mod or two once you start getting closer to the $40k mark.

Edit: The airplane you posted the listing for may be the type of airplane that I just described. I'd spend the money to have Lake Aero or Top Gun do a prepurchase on it and I'd try to get it for less than $30k.

[cocolos]

29k I can go for that. I want a Mooney as low as possible but that's in working order and no major squawks. It's a tall order but I just mostly want an airplane that's IFR and decently fast. I would go for a C172 but I think Mooney's a little for fitting for me, i.e. in terms of speed & efficiency.

If someone on here owns a M20C i'd love to hear your annual cost for operating one!

[carusoam]

You've got good logic. Go see the planes with your own eyes. Professional Pre-purchase inspection will be key to airworthiness issues. Do you like doing mechanical work? Or are you already a mechanic? Under the right conditions, you can save a few bucks each year this way.

best regards,

-a-

[cocolos]

Cool thanks! Well I am no mechanic but I am an engineer so maybe I can help out with some of the work under the supervision of a mechanic so that I can learn basic preventative maintenance.

Would you guys think that 600 or so budget a month enough for ownership of a m20C? possibly by doing a partnership?

[mjc]

I recently met a pilot who had just bought a Mooney (M20C, I think) for somewhere in the $30k neighborhood. It wasn't going to win a beauty contest, but it had a mid-time engine that passed inspection and ran well (well enough to get her checked out and then from CA to FL), and older but fully-functional avionics. There are deals out there, but you'll have to compromise on a few things like paint and interior. If you want a low time engine, glass panel or at least WAAS GPS, new paint, and a new interior, you won't find all that in your budget.

[cocolos]

Sounds like my kind of airplane! lol. I am not much of a person for looks anyways.

[clh]

I don't know anything about the specific plane you mention, but first, I would take a serious look at what you need in the plane. Then lay out a plan for what you are willing to do to upgrade it to what you want. I started with a five year plan. Then be sure you plan for enough money to get you there AND cover the inevitable surprises. Nothing sucks more than to lay out a bunch of cash for a plane and then not have enough cash to keep it in the air. Many folks here and elsewhere recommend up to 1/2 the purchase price in first year maintenance/upgrades. That might be a bit much, I spent about 1/4 the purchase the first two years.. (most of the spend was on necessary upgrades like a loran replacement, strobes, leather interior, etc.)

Jetdriven is right in buy a plane with as many of the "want to haves" already in place. It can be the less expensive route. But make sure you are eyes open in going into the plane.

Be sure to have someone who knows mooneys take a look at her before you plunk down the cash....

[FloridaMan]

You can buy the perfect plane and still have something get you. My plane had been had as good of a maintenance history as you could ask for -- 20 years of maintenance by Willmar Air Service, and a set of upgrades and maintenance items that made you realize the previous owner did everything that the plane needed. The previous owner flew it regularly and expertly. He had put 2500 hours on it in the 20 years that he owned it. On my maiden trip home, the left mag coil decided it was time to burn up and left the pilot I was getting my insurance checkout with and myself stranded in the middle of nowhere in TN.

If you plan on flying IFR, get yourself a Dynon D1 for $1425 and add it to your panel. Nobody has any business flying IFR without a dedicated (read:not ipad, and especially not the novelty apps that don't use an external sensor) backup attitude and heading indicator.

Added: Don't do a partnership. I spend around $2000/month on my plane, but that includes fuel for flying about 20 hours a month, a 550/month hangar (necessity in Florida), my Garmin database updates, and the upgrades I'm slowly adding to it. I think you can do it for $600/month if you don't need or want a hangar. My bill from the FBO is about $1200/mo, which includes my hangar and all the fuel I buy on the field. I spend around 300-400 off the field for fuel, so I'd say you should be able to do it for $600/mo with a tie-down and flying < 10 hours/month.

[rbridges]

a plane that you get for <30K will be pretty basic, and that's fine. If you put more money into it, you can buy nicer avionics for pennies on the dollar. What I mean is a 30K plane with 30K in avionics upgrades will probably sell for 40-45K. It's like buying a car. Mods are a losing investment for the seller.

also, watch out for leaking tanks. Repairs run 7-10K depending on how you address them. Bad engines can cost big $$$, too. I know you're on a budget but a good prebuy, preferably at an MSC would be a good idea.

[1964-M20E]

Two years ago I found my former ’64 E model for under $30k it was real sweet. No AP, updated T format for the flight instruments and IFR GPS interior was decent and paint was in serious need. I’d love to find that plane again but so far I have not been able to. You can find a nice plane for $30k or less but you will need to be patient and look hard. Like others have said think about what you want to do with the plane. If you are going to work on your inst rating I’d look for one that has the standard T format for the flight instruments and two digital nav-coms or plan for that to be one of your first upgrades. Mods not only take $$ they take time and during that time you are not flying the plane. Mods sometimes take weeks to months depending on what you are doing.

[Parker_Woodruff]

$600/month all said and done is a tough bill to fit an any airplane over about 110 horsepower, if you want to fly more than about 5 hours per month / 60 hours per year.

Somewhere, you will have a big expense that'll knock you well over $600/mo. City/State where you live would also help in determining local conditions.

[BigTex]

I'd decide on my typical mission first. That will point you in the direction you need to go in regards to the model. If you plan on only flying with yourself and and another person 90% of the time, with an occasional 3rd person in the back, it's hard to beat the C due to its lower maintenance costs. If you have a young family, an F might be a better fit.

Once you have your mission defined, shop for a plane that has a mid-time engine and the best avionics you can find that would meet your flying style (IFR/VFR). Outside of the engine, there's nothing that would cost more then doing avionics upgrades.

Good luck and be patient with your search. Oh yeah... Have someone like Don Maxwell do your pre-buy. He did mine and saved me thousands by finding items the seller had to fix to make the deal go through.

[Ron McBride]

This plane is not to far from me. I have seen the ads on the local airport walls. She also advertises that she is an Instructor. The paint scheme is not my favorite and the radios appear aged in the pictures. You could call and get more info, aircraft times, engine times, have the tanks been resealed, prop with a B hub, or eddy current, have the landing gear pucks been replaced lately. It also may be interesting to know how long that she has owned the plane.

Ron

[cocolos]

You can buy the perfect plane and still have something get you. My plane had been had as good of a maintenance history as you could ask for -- 20 years of maintenance by Willmar Air Service, and a set of upgrades and maintenance items that made you realize the previous owner did everything that the plane needed. The previous owner flew it regularly and expertly. He had put 2500 hours on it in the 20 years that he owned it. On my maiden trip home, the left mag coil decided it was time to burn up and left the pilot I was getting my insurance checkout with and myself stranded in the middle of nowhere in TN.

If you plan on flying IFR, get yourself a Dynon D1 for $1425 and add it to your panel. Nobody has any business flying IFR without a dedicated (read:not ipad, and especially not the novelty apps that don't use an external sensor) backup attitude and heading indicator.

Added: Don't do a partnership. I spend around $2000/month on my plane, but that includes fuel for flying about 20 hours a month, a 550/month hangar (necessity in Florida), my Garmin database updates, and the upgrades I'm slowly adding to it. I think you can do it for $600/month if you don't need or want a hangar. My bill from the FBO is about $1200/mo, which includes my hangar and all the fuel I buy on the field. I spend around 300-400 off the field for fuel, so I'd say you should be able to do it for $600/mo with a tie-down and flying < 10 hours/month.

That doesn't include financing right?

I do have 1/4 of the cost saved up but that will probably be for the down payment. Do you have a spreadsheet of the cost breakdown? To be honest that's exactly the amount of hours I was planning on flying. Also, at my local airport tie-down is only $50 I figure it's not so bad since California usually has nice weather.

Thanks for all the input everyone! I will look into getting a good pre-buy! I am still contemplating if co-ownership is worth it.

[Becca]

Is this a matter of having $25k now or $50k in 5 years from now.. put $10k down on the loan, and then use the delta money you have available in cash to suppliment your loan payments on a more expensive plane on a 10 year loan, and then as you get more money you keep paying down the loan and you have a nice plane in between. Also a partnership + a shared loan can keep your budget low and allow you to buy more of an airplane than you can afford on your own, and planes like to be flown.

Loans are cheap right now, just a few percent, and so are airplanes. Waiting with cash in the bank isn't already the right solution.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Further tips for lower cost:

1. Don't carry any insurance. If all you have is Social Security and 401(k) income, the plaintiff's attorney can't touch you financially.
   
   
2. Do all your own maintenance, and don't bother with annual inspections. Ramp inspections are rare, and any FAR violations won't be a problem for your estate.
   
   
3. Use automobile fuel. The "C" will burn it just fine.
   
   
4. Tie it down outside at a cheap airport. You can get a good tarp at Home Depot for $60.
   
   
5. Use a handheld GPS but file /G -- ATC can't tell what's in your panel.
   

The above is intended as tongue-in-cheek advise, but I have met pilots who appear to follow those guidelines.

Seriously, a good "C" is about as inexpensive as light plane flying gets. If I had to fly my "C" for $600 per month and was willing to fly no more than 5 or 6 hours per month, here's what I would do:

1. Find a really good partner with similar mechanical and aviation skills
   
   
2. Find an A&P / IA willing to work with us
   
   
3. Plan to do my own 'owner-assisted' annual and routine maintenance
   
   
4. Buy a good canvas cover custom-fit to the plane
   
   
5. Tie it down rather than hanger it
   

I still don't think two guys can make it work flying 10 - 12 hours per month and for $14,400 total annual cost, but you may get close to that figure, especially in more rural parts of the nation. Sooner or later something will break and your budget will be bust.

You don't have to believe me about those cost estimates, just read the threads on this site. $14,400 is not a lot of money in airplane terms. Don't forget, at $6 per gallon, you'll burn half of that sum just for 100LL in a year.

[AndyFromCB]

Here is the deal with airplanes. Even though you're buying a 30K mooney, what you are really buying is a 300K mooney because that's what it would cost in today's dollars if mooney was still building them. If you bought a new airplane, I'd say at any given time, you need to have 20% of purchase price just sitting around just in case. If you buy a 10 to 20 year airplane, I'd say that number is closer to %40 percent. If you buy a 30 to 40 year old airplane, I'd say have another 100% of purchase price sitting around and be ready to write that check at any time. My two cents.

All and all included, capital costs too, I'd say my Bravo runs me about $45K a year to fly 150 hours or so that I do. And I'd say that's on the low end but I'd just rather not think about, so closer to $4K a month, so I'd say a a budget of $1000 to $1500 would be more like it for a simpler model. That's about what my Arrow used to run me a month according to my spreadsheets.

I'd go as far as saying nobody has any business flying any sort of extended IFR without an autopilot with at least an altitude hold. Things get busy up there quickly.

To give you an idea of "airplane money", the reinstall bill for the engine alone, with all the FF forward parts required to be new and/or overhauled was close to 30K. Not including the engine. One stupid exhaust part was close to 6K.

[bd32322]

dang this thread is depressing - I am going to sell my J and get a race car.

I do agree with what you guys are saying though You are indeed buying a 300K airplane - whose parent company is bankrupt and not producing regular parts.

[AndyFromCB]

dang this thread is depressing - I am going to sell my J and get a race car.

I do agree with what you guys are saying though You are indeed buying a 300K airplane - whose parent company is bankrupt and not producing regular parts.

Keep the J and get a race car too and a sail boat. And then you can be like me, sitting on this forums, dreaming of going to play outside while sitting on a day long conference call with auditors so I can afford the payments ;-) One day I'll retire to play with my toys.

[larryb]

What I learned in my first airplane, and applied to the second, is that the buy-in cost of the plane matters little in the overall cost of ownership, as long as you are in the same general class of plane. Many costs are fixed, such as your hanger/tiedown. Others are variable, but relatively close. All of the non-turbo Mooney's are going to cost basically the same to own and operate over time. That new Garmin stack costs the same to put in a $20K C150 as it does in a $100K Mooney. If it costs you $15K/yr to fly a C/E/F/J Mooney, that's $150K over 10 years. If you spend $30K more on the Mooney buy-in, you'll probably recoup most of that when you sell in 10 years. Ownership over that time costs much more than the initial purchase.

Larry

[Hank]

In my C, I average 9 gal/hour traveling, a little less when training for IFR, currency approaches, etc. $5.60, up to $7.18 when traveling.

Aero oil is ~$7-8/quart; 7 quarts plus a $20 filter to change every 50 hours, usually 4-5 quarts of "top off" in between.

I do owner-assisted annuals, call it $800-900 each plus whatever needs to be replaced/repaired. Sometimes nothing. Tires run $120 each, and the freaking tube inside them is another $100!

Pitot-static check isn't expensive every two years, except the one time I had to overhaul the airspeed and altimeter to pass. Transponder gets checked at the same time. No idea on cost of the tests.

Insurance will depend on hull value, limits, your experience and location, etc. Call some agents; I avoid Avemco as they are always at least 50% higher than everyone else. Is there a local broker that fellow pilots can recommend?

60 hours * 9 gallons * $6 = $3240 in fuel

(7+5) * $8 + $20 = $116 per oil change, or $140 in oil [owner maintenance]

$800 annual [owner-assisted]

$200 for pitot-static/Transponder check [wild guess]

That's over $5000 for a 60-hour year. Plus insurance. Plus tie down/hangar. Plus wear-and-tear. At pretty much minimal rates.

Getting a partner will reduce your share of hangar/tie down, annual, 2-year checks and repairs. No repairs are in the estimate above. That will bring your share down to ~$4600 plus half of the repairs for rock-bottom Mooney ownership. It won't be evenly distributed, and $4600 / 12 = ~$400.

Plus charts, plates, funnel for oil, rags and soap to wash & clean. Tools to work with your A&P. Meals when flying.

Your margin is very, very thin, even with a partner. This is why I've never added up my own expenses, it's horrible having to estimate them right now.

[bd32322]

Keep the J and get a race car too and a sail boat. And then you can be like me, sitting on this forums, dreaming of going to play outside while sitting on a day long conference call with auditors so I can afford the payments ;-) One day I'll retire to play with my toys.

haha - both of us should pay attention to our jobs in order to make the payments I think

too much time spent loitering on the forums - lots of interesting bits to see.

To the OP - my annual operating expenses run about 15k for the J model for about 100 hours - including annual and everything (and no loans)

Here is a thread with some break down of the operating costs different people have:

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.php?/topic/4392-annual-operating-budget/page__hl__+operating%20+cost#entry56093