Does a Mooney Climb with Full Flaps?

[201er]

How does a Mooney climb with full flaps? Have you ever accidentally or deliberately tried to climb with full flaps? The most common scenario is forgetting to retract the flaps on a go around. How did it climb? Was the gear down too?

[takair]

Done it intentionally, but I was less than gross weight and not hot. Climbs adequately well with gear down and full flaps. Would not want to do it at gross on a hot day on an actual go around…. Certainly did better than my old Cessna 150 with 40 deg flaps. That would not climb at all. 

[Ibra]

It does, it depends what speeds one tries? but VY(fullflap) is way down compared to VY(clean) and the performance deteriorates a lot on  backside of drag curve

As awlays, one has to accelerate from VS0(fullflaps) to VY(fullflap) at level flight or in ground affect before climbing

The aircraft will not climb on full flap when the speeds are near or bellow stall speed, this effect is more prounounced with full flaps: at slow speeds, the whole wing is acting as flaps or airbreak and require infinite amount of power  the controls are also reversed, to climb one need to pitch down ! 

I tried go-around and takeoff with full flaps near MTOW in M20J, it's a suboptimal profile in terms of performance but very safe on say  long runway (as long as one can control their speeds and pitch while allowing enough time for acceleration).

The main challenge is that the aircraft is atrociously out of trim at slow speeds: require flying by attitude and airspeed dials rather than the usual feel of controls, one has prevent nose from going +20deg in order to go faster and to climb...

Edited December 11, 2024 by Ibra

[Immelman]

This question...... really depends on conditions.

Will my E model climb out of Leadville, CO on a hot day with full flaps at high weight? Probably not.

Will my E climb out at sea level, cool day, solo weight, half gas? Sure.

Other models: Density altitude, weight, engine type, and so on....

[McMooney]

My E will climb fully loaded near max gross weight out of a Sea level airport at approx 700 fpm with flaps fully extended.  Not sure the DA but it was pretty hot.

Unfortunately, I failed to follow the checklist and left the flaps down, gained real world experience

Edited December 11, 2024 by McMooney

[EricJ]

I think that's a certification test, no?    It's why 172s and 182s no longer have 40-degree flaps, because they have to demonstrate climb with full flaps.   They got a gross weight increase instead at the expense of the barn door flaps (which I miss).

[Ibra]

21 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I think that's a certification test, no?

That's my understanding as well, it's part of certification, however, it's rather a weak requirement for all practical purposes, one need to see 3% climb out of ground effect, likely at sea level with standard weather (say balked landing with failed full flaps and gear) 

FAA FAR23.2120 (and EASA CS23.2120) Climb requirements For a balked landing, a climb gradient of 3 percent without creating undue pilot workload with the landing gear extended and flaps in the landing configuration(s).

The 3% climb on good days (3×70kts ~ 210fpm), is ahem, very shallow, it's no different than level flight 

Edited December 11, 2024 by Ibra

[Max Clark]

7 hours ago, 201er said:

How does a Mooney climb with full flaps? Have you ever accidentally or deliberately tried to climb with full flaps? The most common scenario is forgetting to retract the flaps on a go around. How did it climb? Was the gear down too?

When I forget to retract on go-around it sure does.

I should also say that plane climbed fine, airspeed was lower than it should have been which triggered my brain to figure out why.

[redbaron1982]

Do you guys use full flap when landing on IMC? My CFI used to suggest approaching with landing flaps instead of full.

[EricJ]

8 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Do you guys use full flap when landing on IMC? My CFI used to suggest approaching with landing flaps instead of full.

Approach with approach flaps (15 degrees), add landing flaps (full flaps) once the field is made in sight.

[Max Clark]

15 minutes ago, redbaron1982 said:

Do you guys use full flap when landing on IMC? My CFI used to suggest approaching with landing flaps instead of full.

I've had different CFIIs teach this different ways

I'm a approach flaps before FAF, and no changes all the way down guy

Full flaps if field in sight far enough out that it doesn't disrupt a stabilized approach and landing

[N201MKTurbo]

No flaps on instrument approach until I break out then full flaps.

In 4500 hours of Mooney flying, I have never approached or landed with partial flaps. They are either up or down. They don’t do much anyway. I’ve never needed 1/2 of not so much.

On go arounds, 1/2 power, trim, full power, trim, positive rate, gear up, 100 feet, flaps up.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

Do you guys use full flap when landing on IMC? My CFI used to suggest approaching with landing flaps instead of full.

If my landing is challenging (busy procedures, instruments, night, winds, icing...), I put takeoff flaps or no flaps. For some reason, I like the feel of more speed and another extra advantage is less things to worry about on visual segments, go-around, balked landing: I throttle up and pitch for my speed.

It's mostly personal preferences, I can do full flaps but it's not my cup of tea: on full approach it feel too mushy/slow on 3deg glide (no flaps feels  stable/fast, especially in gusty winds), on short final, I hate when it balloon and I hate large trim change from idle power to full power during go-around 

I use full flaps when doing landing in tight strips in nice days or when doing tight pattern work with steep glide (6deg) 

The go-around with full flaps require orderly execution

Edited December 11, 2024 by Ibra

[PeterRus]

26 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

They don’t do much anyway. I’ve never needed 1/2 of not so much.

They at 1/2 nicely negate the need for attitude adjustment/trim with gear down/transition. 

[McMooney]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

Approach with approach flaps (15 degrees), add landing flaps (full flaps) once the field is made in sight.

I tend to just use approach flaps for landings in general,  seems easier to get the squeakers

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

Do you guys use full flap when landing on IMC? My CFI used to suggest approaching with landing flaps instead of full.

My normal procedure - half flaps at the FAF and full flaps when the field is assured. 

[bigmo]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

Do you guys use full flap when landing on IMC? My CFI used to suggest approaching with landing flaps instead of full.

I set 1/2 flaps two miles prior to the FAF. That’s my buffer to get fully configured as I nose over at the FAF. I land that way. This is not meant as a dig for those that put in full flaps at the last minute, but doing so IMO is not a stabilized approach - a requirement I aim to instill in instrument instruction.

BUT, I land my F with 1/2 flaps 90% of the time. The other 10% are no flaps due to wind gusts.

I do 1-2 full flap landings a year, just so I mentally retain that sight picture. The CFI that did my Mooney transition trained me that way, and similarly I as a instructor train others that way.

[N201MKTurbo]

32 minutes ago, McMooney said:

I tend to just use approach flaps for landings in general,  seems easier to get the squeakers

Whatever works for you….

[N201MKTurbo]

I think ya’all are over complicating this flap thing way too much. But that is just me. Whatever works for you is fine with me.

After many thousands of Mooney landings, I must say landing a Mooney well is way easier than parking my truck in the Walmart parking lot.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Do you guys use full flap when landing on IMC? My CFI used to suggest approaching with landing flaps instead of full.

I have Takeoff Flaps down before the FAF, and drop gear when 1-1/2 below glideslope; the plane settles in and descends on speed and on slope. Then I take it to the runway and land, using Flaps as just another flight control to get me to where I want to be.

[201er]

3 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Do you guys use full flap when landing on IMC? My CFI used to suggest approaching with landing flaps instead of full.

Your instructor hasn't flown approaches in actual to a short field in a Mooney... assuming you meant takeoff flaps. Landing flaps is full flaps.

I use the flaps and frankly all other systems the same whether I'm in IMC or VMC. Plane flies the same whether you can see out the window or not. So, full flaps on short final around the same place I'd go full flaps in visual. This helps keep things more consistent with how I'm used to them being when visual.

Edited December 12, 2024 by 201er

[redbaron1982]

3 minutes ago, 201er said:

Your instructor hasn't flown approaches in actual to a short field in a Mooney.

Do you know who is my instructor? I can't think of another way you made that statement...

[jrwilson]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

Your instructor hasn't flown approaches in actual to a short field in a Mooney... assuming you meant takeoff flaps. Landing flaps is full flaps.

I use the flaps and frankly all other systems the same whether I'm in IMC or VMC. Plane flies the same whether you can see out the window or not. So, full flaps on short final around the same place I'd go full flaps in visual. This helps keep things more consistent with how I'm used to them being when visual.

I think you guys are saying the same thing…sounds like you both go full flaps on short final, ie, minimums.  But the majority of the approach, through the FAF, with only partial flaps (takeoff setting).

[McMooney]

14 hours ago, 201er said:

Your instructor hasn't flown approaches in actual to a short field in a Mooney... assuming you meant takeoff flaps. Landing flaps is full flaps.

I use the flaps and frankly all other systems the same whether I'm in IMC or VMC. Plane flies the same whether you can see out the window or not. So, full flaps on short final around the same place I'd go full flaps in visual. This helps keep things more consistent with how I'm used to them being when visual.

 from my experience in birdy, even with approach flaps, i'm down and stopped in less than 1500 feet.  If the field is so short where it matters, i'm sure you'd use full flaps and every other resource

Edited December 12, 2024 by McMooney

[A64Pilot]

In all honesty I cant think of ever shooting an ILS to a short field, ILS as I’m old was my default in “hard” IFR. I don’t fly IFR anymore, I don’t have the need or desire and don’t maintain proficiency, so I just don’t. I’m one that believes proficiency and currency differ.

Are there any ILS equipped short fields? I guess that depends on your definition of short? I normally land with full flap, because that gives me the lowest landing speed and a lower deck angle, but I think you should be comfortable landing with no flap, because eventually you will have to.

A Mooney or any other GA aircraft will go around with gear down and full flaps, if nothing else an electrical failure is possible even if unlikely. But it won’t in every possible scenario. You can’t cover every possibility, if you try you will end up with a dog with no real range or useful load.

However every GA aircraft I can think of climbs best with NO flap. Many won’t use flaps on takeoff because of this, rather than getting wrapped around the axle on something that likely isn’t real important, I use T/O flaps because the POH calls for it. I’ve participated in several accident investigations, both Military and Civil. If your the aircraft Commander it’s far easier if you were following the POH as opposed to give a convincing argument why the POH is incorrect.

But in truth under normal circumstances it’s truly difficult to get a Certified GA airplane in a position it can’t fly, yet of course some do every year, we have all seen the videos of the airplane that gets off the ground but can’t climb because it’s in the region of reverse command. You just can’t build an idiot proof anything, there will always be a “better” idiot.

As with everything else all this is opinion, there are many ways to skin a cat, and no single way is always the best, that’s why in my opinion you should be comfortable with every possible way. For example if light weight and near sea level the shortest T/O in my Maule was with 48 degrees (full flap), but my normal T/O was no flap. I think it was 48 degrees anyway, point is depending on conditions maybe there is no one best flap position, which flies in the face of always follow the POH.  In my opinion you should do a couple of practice go-arounds full flap and gear down, learn it’s not anything to be afraid of, if you weren’t shown that then you should have, eventually you will need to go around on short final and scrambling to get gear and flap may not be prudent, possibly getting the aircraft climbing and you to settle down, then getting gear and flaps is a better idea.

Watch some videos of Corsairs take off of a Carrier if you want to see a lot of flap, or watch the T/O film of the Doolittle raid, those guys did a lot of practice with getting a heavy B-25 off short, I’m sure they tried everything.

Edited December 12, 2024 by A64Pilot