Engine will not start!

[Ppizzo]

My engine will not start.  Starter: hey, fuel pump: new, spark plugs: brand new…any thoughts?

[N201MKTurbo]

What have you done since the last time it started?

[ArtVandelay]

Might help to post particulars: engine model, does it turn over? Fuel pressure? Any fuel on the ground? Does it feel like it’s close to starting?

[Ppizzo]

If it gets me an answers, sure. Continental TSIO 360, M231K, plenty of fuel pressure, flow, etc. in starts to turn over but will not comit to the start.  What’s the answer! The answer

[dzeleski]

17 minutes ago, Ppizzo said:

If it gets me an answers, sure. Continental TSIO 360, M231K, plenty of fuel pressure, flow, etc. in starts to turn over but will not comit to the start.  What’s the answer! The answer

There are some really smart people here that might be able to give you an answer but they need details to do that. There are many reasons for an engine not to start and even things like the type of mags installed matter.

I would caution you on just throwing parts at a problem, it could be as simple as a loose nut/wire, or ignition switch. @N201MKTurbo's question is important though, have you done anything to the airplane since it last started? Or did you shut it down one day and it failed to start the next and nothing was touched? The reason hes asking this is because you listed a bunch of new parts installed and he has a great deal of experience connecting the dots on these airplanes.

Edited September 21 by dzeleski

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, Ppizzo said:

If it gets me an answers, sure. Continental TSIO 360, M231K, plenty of fuel pressure, flow, etc. in starts to turn over but will not comit to the start.  What’s the answer! The answer

So far, so good…

let’s see if I remember how to summarize a challenge…

 

We have an M20K with an TSIO360…

lots of new parts…

lots of fuel pressure…

with an interesting, but non descriptive statement…

 

The engine won’t commit to start?

it does turn…

 

hmmmm…

sounds to me like the starter isn’t able to turn the engine over with any speed.

 

if we consider the starter, the battery, the starter relay… and all of their connections…

the starter should spin the prop without any issues…

 

if the starter can spin the prop without slowing down under cylinder compression… we get to the next level…

cold start, warm start, hot start…

getting the start procedure right for the M20K depends on which fuel priming location you have…

if your priming system is working… your Fuel Flow indicator shows fuel going to the engine…

it is easy to flood the engine… and then follow the flooded engine start!!!

Hi all!

-a-

[Sue Bon]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Hi all!

Hi! It's been a while. Welcome back  

[PT20J]

ANSWER: If it turns over, it's either a problem with fuel or spark.

[Bartman]

The one time this happened to me...

Magneto

[N201MKTurbo]

It looks like it started Thursday.

[Will.iam]

Starter adapter is starting to slip. This will not fix itself and will only get worse until you get stranded somewhere. 

[bcg]

ANSWER: If it turns over, it's either a problem with fuel or spark.

Or air...

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[PT20J]

14 minutes ago, bcg said:

Or air...

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Sure, but unless someone stuffed a rag in the intake, that’s less likely.

This actually happened on the museum B-25. The mechanic stuffed a rag in the downdraft intake to prevent FOD falling in and someone else put the cowling back on without noticing. It started and ran fine but didn’t make takeoff power. So, you have to really shut off the air supply to keep it from starting because it needs so little air at low power.

[bcg]

Sure, but unless someone stuffed a rag in the intake, that’s less likely.
This actually happened on the museum B-25. The mechanic stuffed a rag in the downdraft intake to prevent FOD falling in and someone else put the cowling back on without noticing. It started and ran fine but didn’t make takeoff power. So, you have to really shut off the air supply to keep it from starting because it needs so little air at low power.

Unlikely yes but, I always run through the basics first. I can't tell you how many times I've wasted hours on something because I didn't bother looking at something simple that I thought was unlikely to be the cause. Of the 3, air is the easiest to verify, then fuel and finally fire. It's not the only way to do it, just what works for me. I try to be methodical in troubleshooting and rule out one possibility before moving on to the next.

So, if it was me, I'd start with the easiest, is the air path unobstructed? Next, I'd crack a fuel line at the carb and verify I had fuel and that it's not contaminated.

Then I'd start on fire, bomb test the plugs, test the leads with a high voltage wire tester. Or, if you're really brave, turn off the fuel and pull all the plugs and touch them to the engine one at a time while cranking to see if they spark. Be sure you're using really well insulated pliers though, it hurts when they bite. My uncle did that once on an outboard when we were offshore and it wouldn't start, he had his feet dangling in the water when the motor was cranked and got a hell of a shock. We, of course, all laughed our asses off at him.

I'm not well versed enough yet to know how to troubleshoot the magnetos, check timing or check the shower of sparks, if installed. So, if the above didn't solve it, I'd have to ask for help.

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[LANCECASPER]

13 minutes ago, bcg said:

Next, I'd crack a fuel line at the carb and verify I had fuel and that it's not contaminated.

No carb on a Mooney 231. TSIO360-(GB or LB).

Doubtful that the fuel is contaminated since he flew a lot in the past ten days after not flying for 5 months, but never hurts to sump to see if there is debris in the fuel that could be clogging it somewhere.   https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N231LR/history/20240412/2121Z/KSAC/KCCR

[bcg]

No carb on a Mooney 231. TSIO360-(GB or LB).
Doubtful that the fuel is contaminated since he flew a lot in the past ten days after not flying for 5 months, but never hurts to sump to see if there is debris in the fuel that could be clogging it somewhere.   https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/N231LR/history/20240412/2121Z/KSAC/KCCR

Fair, I should have looked more closely...I overlooked the I.

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[Ppizzo]

Thanks All, It turns over and seems like it wants to start.  In fact yesterday, it started and I flew to Half Moon Bar.  It runs fine.  I have an EDM 800 and it shows fuel flow is fine.  I really think it's the starting procedure.  I also think it might be temp related as it will not start in the morning.  I see that some of you think that it floods easy, does this happen only with the prime or can opening the throttle cause flooding?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[LANCECASPER]

On 9/23/2024 at 9:31 AM, Ppizzo said:

Thanks All, It turns over and seems like it wants to start.  In fact yesterday, it started and I flew to Half Moon Bar.  It runs fine.  I have an EDM 800 and it shows fuel flow is fine.  I really think it's the starting procedure.  I also think it might be temp related as it will not start in the morning.  I see that some of you think that it floods easy, does this happen only with the prime or can opening the throttle cause flooding?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cold starts should be easy with a little added fuel. It could be starting procedure for sure - that's the first place to look.

If going back to the POH recommendations on starting doesn't do it, I would really look closely on any recent work (or lack thereof) on the mags - timing, overhaul. You don't want to get stuck somewhere unable to re-start. It's easy to run the one 12v battery down on a 231. That was the first Mooney model I owned. 

[LANCECASPER]

As a side point, you're probably already aware that your airplane, N231LR, is a world record holder from 44 years ago:

https://www.thisdayinaviation.com/tag/n231lr/

[redbaron1982]

On 9/21/2024 at 8:29 AM, Ppizzo said:

My engine will not start.  Starter: hey, fuel pump: new, spark plugs: brand new…any thoughts?

Did you find out what was going on? Do you mind sharing what the issue was?

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, Ppizzo said:

Thanks All, It turns over and seems like it wants to start.  In fact yesterday, it started and I flew to Half Moon Bar.  It runs fine.  I have an EDM 800 and it shows fuel flow is fine.  I really think it's the starting procedure.  I also think it might be temp related as it will not start in the morning.  I see that some of you think that it floods easy, does this happen only with the prime or can opening the throttle cause flooding?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

So you are also a new owner? How many seconds of prime to do give it and using which pump? I trust it has had the duel diverter removed? Continentals do not flood easily, they are in fact quite thirsty at startup.

[PeteMc]

A while ago there was an AD that modified the priming for the TSIO360, so you can now easily over prime.

Originally you would use the Primer and the fuel went into one cylinder.  Now when you use the Primer or Elec Fuel Pump (same thing now) you're putting fuel in all the cylinders.  So you can easily over prime, so on a warm day, maybe only 3 seconds is all it takes.  I think the manual says 3-4 seconds and I used to give it a little extra with the old primming method.  Now you need to find the right amount for your plane.

Also, where the throttle is makes a BIG difference.  I used to do 3 turns, mechanic lubricated and adjusted the throttle cable a few years back.  Took me a while to realize that now 4 twists is were I need to be.

 

[Pinecone]

My TSIO-360-SB likes about 4 seconds prime with throttle full open, full rich.  Throttle back to about 1/4" from closed.  Starts in 2 blades.

It wants a good prime.  As someone said, it is thirsty.

[hubcap]

Myrtle has the TSIO-360-LB….On a cold start, I prime 4 seconds with the throttle wide open and full rich. After priming, open the throttle 1/4” and she starts on the 2nd blade every time.

[Ppizzo]

Thanks!