Gear Up at KCVH on July 8, Third Major in 12 years For This Airplane

[GeeBee]

Mooneys have the same gear up rate as other GA retractable, but it is an unacceptable rate. We can do better.

 

[Pinecone]

On 7/16/2024 at 3:06 PM, Echo said:

Just installed the gear installed verbal alert system I purchased used for $300.

Which system?

[Pinecone]

12 hours ago, wombat said:

But maybe each aircraft should have a pre-landing checklist printed somewhere that is easy to reference?  I think my Mooney has one, but I never use it.

Mine is on the lower part of the center console.  Not exactly easy to see/use.

I use GUMPS as a quick last check on final.  JUST in case.

[wombat]

I've been making a separate 'gear is down' callout at about 100' AGL on final in addition to 'gear down and locked' on mid-field downwind and on the turn to base and the turn to final.   Hopefully that'll be enough that I don't miss all of those at once.

@Pinecone I'm pretty sure mine does too, but as you say, it's not in a very good spot for easy reference.

 

@GeeBee What would be an acceptable cost to reduce our gear up rate?   And what do you propose we do to reduce it?

[Mooneymite]

6 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Mooneys have the same gear up rate as other GA retractable, but it is an unacceptable rate. We can do better.

 

Absolutely correct on both counts.  Unacceptable and we can do better.  I know I have said this many times on Mooneyspace:  Technology is the answer.

GUMPS, checklists and incantations have gotten us the present gear-up rate.  It isn't going to get any better using these tools.  We are human.  It is time to use non-human assistance.

Now think about the gear-up rate for expensive aircraft with EGPWS.

Technology is the obvious answer to driving the unacceptable gear-up rate down toward zero.

[GeeBee]

9 minutes ago, wombat said:

What would be an acceptable cost to reduce our gear up rate?   And what do you propose we do to reduce it?

You keep trying to put a price on good operational discipline. You have to take a more holistic approach. Annual training covering  good operational discipline and judgement is IMHO paramount. A written checklist or operational policy is of no value unless it is followed as a matter of self-discipline cemented by training. A before takeoff checklist is as important as a before landing checklist and both should be used as a matter of operational imperative.

You simply cannot say, I will do "this" to reduce gear ups rather you say, "I will operate in this manner" as part of my entire operation.  That means checklist for each phase, call outs at critical junctures and inflection points, and the self discipline to adhere to the operational policies and routines. Training is where you practice policies and routines to make them work for you and your operation.

[dkkim73]

16 hours ago, wombat said:

Some things apply to some aircraft and not others and I personally find it difficult to repeatedly follow a procedure that doesn't apply most of the time.   Most of my landings these days are still in fixed gear aircraft and it's hard to keep pointing at the gear lever that doesn't exist and say 'gear down'.  

I found myself saying "down and welded" which is kind of like my habit of saying "altitude" on the intercom when I hear center ask some other flight to "say altitude". Sort of a poor-man's Rod Machado. 

But seriously though I do think it helps keep up the habit of running GUMPS. 

[dkkim73]

15 hours ago, EricJ said:

I've never liked GUMPS because I always want to put "gear" where the 'g' is, and that screws it all up, unless you do the Gear, Undercarriage, Make sure the gear is down, Probably should check the gear again...etc., version.

So now I used PUFFS,  Power, Undercarriage, Fuel, Flaps, Seatbelts.

@EricJ 

I thought I was the only one with that problem. A habit my transition instructor taught me that I really like is to hold on to the gear lever until I've confirmed them down by two indicators (the line on the floor and the annunciator light). However, that delays my power reduction (abeam the #s in a visual/standard pattern) unless I do it out of order (tried) and also I keep confusing the G and the U even after many years. Not really confusion just a hiccup in the flow. 

PUFFS sounds like a nice flow. Dr. Know for the win!  How long did it take you to get used to it? 

ETA: Here's another one I learned from a Mooney broker. The "UPS" check on short final: Undercarraige, Propeller, Switches. 

Edited July 18 by dkkim73
adding a thought

[dkkim73]

21 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

You keep trying to put a price on good operational discipline. You have to take a more holistic approach. ....

You simply cannot say, I will do "this" to reduce gear ups rather you say, "I will operate in this manner" as part of my entire operation.  That means checklist for each phase, call outs at critical junctures and inflection points, and the self discipline to adhere to the operational policies and routines. Training is where you practice policies and routines to make them work for you and your operation.

The swiss-cheese model of error might be over-quoted, but it's for a reason. There are behavioral controls (norming, etc), environmental controls (sterile cockpit, workload mgmt), technical controls (warning systems), procedural controls (checklist discipline, individual and corporate etc). 

There seems to be a lot of magic-bullet thinking, for example the comment about "technology being the solution". If technology were the answer alone we wouldn't see things like the 737Max8 disasters, which were arguably in significant part an attempt to use technology to make up for human resource shortcomings. 

I deeply believe in both-and type solutions. I'm nerdily compulsive on my flows and checklists and I'm just a PP. I also enthusiastically bought the Microkit LHS in part for the gear warnings. etc, etc. Also have been spending a lot of thought on procedure, being newer to retracts. So this is all very close to home. 

The other meta-topic here is shaming. I think generally shame and social norming are under-rated ("I'm ok, you're ok", "you do you", "all truth is relative", blah blah). Many of us just need an ***-kicking from time to time. There are tons of sociological examples of why social norming works. And that can be via positive norms such as ideals of airmanship, professionalism, etc, or negative in not wanting to be "that guy". 

OTOH human-factors and organizational analytic approaches show that shaming and overly-simplistic norms drive error and its root causes underground. A good case study is the use of checklists in surgery (inspired by aviation). The traditional ideal of the surgeon is essentially to be perfect. There are good reasons for this ethic, but errors inevitably occurred as that ideal is simply unrealistic. Checklists and process controls helped a lot. Some technical controls, too, but people will often do stupid things just because a machine tells them to. 

Now watch me forget to take out the chocks...

[Echo]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Which system?

This little guy 

[Echo]

If I gear up my plane is totaled ($85k) in hull coverage. That was a strong motivation for me to spend on audible alarm in headsets. It is tied to gear horn. Just a small investment for not being that guy again. Love the stall!  Stall! In flare too. She has a pleasant, but forceful voice. I tell her I cheated death again. Thanks much. 

[GeeBee]

To propound on skim73 excellent post a quick analysis of Mooney operations which are well documented on this site reveals a number of pilot controlled killer items. One that has no warning is stab trim. Recently for instance there was long body fatal as a result of taking off with the stab trim still in the landing position. As an operational discipline on this item, I have the stab trim on my After Landing checklist. That's right, I return the trim to "Takeoff" after landing that way it is in position for pre-flight walk around for the next mission. (I have painted index marks to note anything out of position)Then I have it on the "After Start Check" to insure it is set correctly (again) and the power to it is turned on. Then I have it on the Before Takeoff Checklist and finally I do a quick verbal configuration check before taking the runway. "Flaps, Trim, Speed brakes, parking brake off. So all together I have checked the trim 5 times as a matter of routine divided over the arrival and next departure.

[toto]

19 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

To propound on skim73 excellent post a quick analysis of Mooney operations which are well documented on this site reveals a number of pilot controlled killer items. Recently for instance there was long body fatal as a result of taking off with the stab trim still in the landing position. As an operational discipline on this item, I have the stab trim on my After Landing checklist. That's right, I return the trim to "Takeoff" after landing that way it is in position for pre-flight walk around for the next mission. (I have painted index marks to note anything out of position)Then I have it on the "After Start Check" to insure it is set correctly (again) and the power to it is turned on. Then I have it on the Before Takeoff Checklist and finally I do a quick verbal configuration check before taking the runway. "Flaps, Trim, Speed brakes, parking brake off. So all together I have checked the trim 5 times as a matter of routine divided over the arrival and next departure.

After the good discussion we had on the Eagle accident at KOJC, I've changed my landing behavior - I used to trim nose up throughout the landing maneuver, touching down with pretty significant trim set.  Since the Eagle accident, I now put in just enough nose-up trim to reduce the control forces to a reasonable level, and I'm much more dependent on elbow grease than I used to be.  As much as I try to be sure that I never miss resetting trim in my checklist, I don't want a one-time mistake to be fatal with an immediate departure stall on takeoff.  (I assume this is a more pronounced problem on a long body than on a mid, but still.)

[dkkim73]

31 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

...That's right, I return the trim to "Takeoff" after landing that way it is in position for pre-flight walk around for the next mission. (I have painted index marks to note anything out of position)... Then I have it on the Before Takeoff Checklist and finally I do a quick verbal configuration check before taking the runway. "Flaps, Trim, Speed brakes, parking brake off. So all together I have checked the trim 5 times as a matter of routine divided over the arrival and next departure.

At the risk of asking you to tie my shoes for me, when you're at the plane next can you send me a photo of where you put the index marks? That's a great idea and I think I'll add that. Did you use touch-up paint or some kind of marker, or something else? 

The horizontal stab trim is a big safety focus item for me, too. It's a really elegant engineering solution (movable empennage) but slow to move in this plane and generates a lot of force. 

[dkkim73]

17 minutes ago, toto said:

After the good discussion we had on the Eagle accident at KOJC, I've changed my landing behavior - I used to trim nose up throughout the landing maneuver, touching down with pretty significant trim set.  Since the Eagle accident, I now put in just enough nose-up trim to reduce the control forces to a reasonable level, and I'm much more dependent on elbow grease than I used to be.  As much as I try to be sure that I never miss resetting trim in my checklist, I don't want a one-time mistake to be fatal with an immediate departure stall on takeoff.  (I assume this is a more pronounced problem on a long body than on a mid, but still.)

I'm still wrestling with the question of how best to do this procedure. My understanding is that it's more of an issue on the long-bodies, and the balance seems to be forward a lot of the time in my Acclaim (though I've started purposely loading as far aft as I can on commutes, which just feels better). 

Techniques I've heard of: 

-trim into the flare to keep forces low

-trim up on the transition but push forward, so trim is set for the flare portion, kind of an alternative approach to the above (you're moving the muscle-y part earlier in the process where you're higher off the ground, almost a reverse flare)

-keep trim more moderate and use more force in the flare

Pros of more trim: 

-Weber's law says our perception threshold is 5% of the force we are holding, e.g. so trim to neutral gives much finer feel than 10 lbs of force against a faster trim setting. So much quicker to feel and react to changes in force (feedback from flight surfaces), able to be more precise with force applied, less mentally-distracting

Pros of less trim: 

-Less dangerous on a go-around (the trim is way up for me, to be neutral at 70-75KIAS, and required forward pressure is significant; not crazy but a lot of force and should be applied quickly)

-Less risk of tail plane stall. I've felt this about 3 times, once very notably where I had to push forward a bit to stop the bobble. My transition instructor warned me this can set me up for a sudden pitch down and a prop strike. Also, it feels... "not right" to be so close to a limit of primary control authority. 

Overall I'm seeing better control and awareness with more trim than not, but I'm still very aware of the potential problem. Tips appreciated. 

[GeeBee]

15 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

At the risk of asking you to tie my shoes for me, when you're at the plane next can you send me a photo of where you put the index marks? That's a great idea and I think I'll add that. Did you use touch-up paint or some kind of marker, or something else? 

The horizontal stab trim is a big safety focus item for me, too. It's a really elegant engineering solution (movable empennage) but slow to move in this plane and generates a lot of force. 

Just some black paint and masking tape. Brush it on.

[GeeBee]

Not a problem to control if trimmed up for landing in the event of a go-around. You have to "grunt" a bit however it is controllable.. The real issue is being ready for it vs. being surprised. When you are surprised it is less controllable and that is what I aim for, no surprises. 

[Hank]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

You simply cannot say, I will do "this" to reduce gear ups rather you say, "I will operate in this manner" as part of my entire operation.  That means checklist for each phase, call outs at critical junctures and inflection points, and the self discipline to adhere to the operational policies and routines. Training is where you practice policies and routines to make them work for you and your operation.

That's all well and good, and is how most of us probably fly. The hiccup comes along when something is different . . .

I check the green gear light on downwind when I put them down; again on base leg; and on short final I check the floor indicator. 

Then comes my flight into RDU, when Tower sent me 15 nm north of the field, still at 7500 msl. THEN they turned me inbound and cleared me to land, #8. WTF??? So here I am, 7000' agl, 15 nm out, having slowed from cruise to just above the white arc. This is not a situation that I've briefed for, nor ever practiced. Reduce power, aim down  and trim forces off, let airspeed increase. I realized at about 1500 agl that I had a decent glideslope going and would land in a normal position, and worked a little more to slow down and get the flaps out to Takeoff. Still looked good to land. Coming over the fence, habit made me look at the floor indicator, and it was NOT GREEN!! Really quick, I pulled that white knob down, felt the thump, saw the green light, saw green on the floor and flared. Not sure what automation would have done to prevent this.

[dkkim73]

14 minutes ago, Hank said:

...

Then comes my flight into RDU, when Tower sent me 15 nm north of the field, still at 7500 msl. THEN they turned me inbound and cleared me to land, #8. WTF??? ....  Still looked good to land. Coming over the fence, habit made me look at the floor indicator, and it was NOT GREEN!! Really quick, I pulled that white knob down, felt the thump, saw the green light, saw green on the floor and flared. Not sure what automation would have done to prevent this.

Yeah, that's what I'm working on, a more robust flow. It's the exceptions to flow that scare me. Had something similar though less ridiculous (#8, is that today or tomorrow? :)) recently and was very aware of the gear. I was low and far from the field and trying to manage power and guess what speed would help the traffic flow. 

Canonical points to lower gear for me so far are: 

-FAF or cleared for the visual on IFR

-abeam the threshold on a standard visual pattern

Beyond that I'm working on it. The "UPS" checklist on short final has been helpful so far as a cross-check on gear status. And the LHS is there, though a lot of places I fly have big drops prior to touchdown. 

 

 

[dkkim73]

38 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Just some black paint and masking tape. Brush it on.

Well you really took your time sending me that, didn't you?

That's great, picture ~= 1000 words, ty!

[GeeBee]

26 minutes ago, Hank said:

That's all well and good, and is how most of us probably fly. The hiccup comes along when something is different . . .

I check the green gear light on downwind when I put them down; again on base leg; and on short final I check the floor indicator. 

Then comes my flight into RDU, when Tower sent me 15 nm north of the field, still at 7500 msl. THEN they turned me inbound and cleared me to land, #8. WTF??? So here I am, 7000' agl, 15 nm out, having slowed from cruise to just above the white arc. This is not a situation that I've briefed for, nor ever practiced. Reduce power, aim down  and trim forces off, let airspeed increase. I realized at about 1500 agl that I had a decent glideslope going and would land in a normal position, and worked a little more to slow down and get the flaps out to Takeoff. Still looked good to land. Coming over the fence, habit made me look at the floor indicator, and it was NOT GREEN!! Really quick, I pulled that white knob down, felt the thump, saw the green light, saw green on the floor and flared. Not sure what automation would have done to prevent this.

500' Verbalize desired state check in addition to your checklist. "Gear down, flaps down, speed brakes down, on speed, on path" Just like the airlines verbalize, "1000 feet, Gear down, cleared to land".  No matter how far or how weird the pattern at some point, you will be a 500'

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Just some black paint and masking tape. Brush it on.

My trim strips make it obvious.  I posted a picture of my plane in the hangar and several people commented on the trim setting.

Like you, mine is in several places.  Before start, Before Taxi, Before Take off, and last chance check rolling onto the runway.

 

[Pinecone]

49 minutes ago, Hank said:

Not sure what automation would have done to prevent this.

A MicroKit Landing Height System would have said "Check Gear" at 200 feet AGL.

Since that only happens when you are at 200 feet and the gear switch UP, it is not common, so gets your attention.

[Hank]

17 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

A MicroKit Landing Height System would have said "Check Gear" at 200 feet AGL.

Since that only happens when you are at 200 feet and the gear switch UP, it is not common, so gets your attention.

That's about where I noticed it myself 

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Then I have it on the "After Start Check" to insure it is set correctly (again) and the power to it is turned on. Then I have it on the Before Takeoff Checklist

I just added it to several of my checklists in red.  It's good to separate killer items from the more mundane.