40:1 Landing gear actuator gears

[Matthew P]

Does anyone have an extra set of the 40:1 gear kit for the landing gear actuator, can't get them from Mooney, they don't have them and aren't making them, don't know when or if they will, if you do have a set, would like to rent them from you so that I can have a machinist friend of mine reproduce them since Mooney isn't interested on continuing to support those kits and the fact that there is still an active reocurring AD.

[N201MKTurbo]

I do have a new set….

You promise to give them back?

[Matthew P]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

I do have a new set….

You promise to give them back?

I do, I'll even give you a deposit, would need them for approximately 2 weeks.

[Matthew P]

10 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I do have a new set….

You promise to give them back?

I sent you a message...thanks for your consideration

[Echo]

On 5/6/2024 at 10:27 PM, Matthew P said:

I sent you a message...thanks for your consideration

Have him make two.  I am interested.

[Rmfriday]

or 3....

I'll buy a set........

 

[Matthew P]

So, to everyone asking for a set, I'm looking into the legalities of such....There are things owners can choose to do in regards to fabricating and substituting parts that are no longer manufactured vs someone who wants to manufacture and sell said replacement parts, with it affecting such a small community, would probably be cost prohibitive to get them PMAd.....so will let you know..worse case, will probably be able to sell the CAD files as they will be working up for both 20:1 and 40:1 gearing...just know there is a need out there and Mooney has been non-responsive to my emails....

Edited May 17 by Matthew P

[EricJ]

22 hours ago, Matthew P said:

So, to everyone asking for a set, I'm looking into the legalities of such....There are things owners can choose to do in regards to fabricating and substituting parts that are no longer manufactured vs someone who wants to manufacture and sell said replacement parts, with it affecting such a small community, would probably be cost prohibitive to get them PMAd.....so will let you know..worse case, will probably be able to sell the CAD files as they will be working up for both 20:1 and 40:1 gearing...just know there is a need out there and Mooney has been non-responsive to my emails....

If you haven't seen it, go back and research the thread here from when the down lock blocks were made.   There was extensive research done on what would be required to produce a small run of parts and maintain OPP status.   There was a glitch later, which caused some issues, but I think the upshot was that everything was actually done properly.   In any case, there was a lot of discussion and research on all of the same issues.

[Matthew P]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

If you haven't seen it, go back and research the thread here from when the down lock blocks were made.   There was extensive research done on what would be required to produce a small run of parts and maintain OPP status.   There was a glitch later, which caused some issues, but I think the upshot was that everything was actually done properly.   In any case, there was a lot of discussion and research on all of the same issues.

Thanks, I'll check it out

[Matthew P]

7 hours ago, EricJ said:

If you haven't seen it, go back and research the thread here from when the down lock blocks were made.   There was extensive research done on what would be required to produce a small run of parts and maintain OPP status.   There was a glitch later, which caused some issues, but I think the upshot was that everything was actually done properly.   In any case, there was a lot of discussion and research on all of the same issues.

Searched and didn't come up with anything, if you come across it, let me know

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Matthew P said:

Searched and didn't come up with anything, if you come across it, let me know

Main thread may have been taken down.  This thread was related to it.  Try going back to page 1, and start from there:

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/32872-looking-for-a-up-lock-and-down-lock-block-for-cnc-owner-produced/page/12/

 

[201Steve]

I think it turned into a big heated thing and wouldn’t be surprised if someone took it down. I’d bet they got it done. Be nice if you could get the worm gear also with matching metallurgy to the formerly available kit. Let me know how it goes. I need one for my shelf. 

[Matthew P]

6 hours ago, 201Steve said:

I think it turned into a big heated thing and wouldn’t be surprised if someone took it down. I’d bet they got it done. Be nice if you could get the worm gear also with matching metallurgy to the formerly available kit. Let me know how it goes. I need one for my shelf. 

I have an original gear and original worm gear, they are getting scanned and drawn up, will let everyone know when it is completed as I need to get the original part back to the owner who was nice enough to loan it to me...unfortunately I have been unsuccessful finding a set of old, out of tolerance, gears for the destructive testing for the metalurgist 

[KSMooniac]

The OPP regulation is a very valuable path for owners like us in this situation.  There is quite a bit of latitude on the "production" of said parts, and the owner does NOT have to literally make the part themselves.  They only have to be involved with the specification and direction of the production, and only install them on their own plane.  (ie don't make and sell them to get around PMA rules!)  The specification can be as simple as "duplicate an existing part using the same materials and dimensions," and that is perfectly proper.  In this case, the machinist friend can make a batch of them without worry and distribute to individuals.  

I would very much like to buy a set as well if you and the friend are willing.  If he makes a batch, the price could be lower for everyone.  If you want to create a paper trail, you could have anyone interested complete a simple form to create the specification and then everything is above-board.  (This is how companies like MacFarlane handle making duplicate engine control cables or similar where they do not have a PMA!)

If you need a scrap version for destructive test, I'd suggest talking to Maxwell or Top Gun or similar and see if they have any in their box of misc hardware that is used for show-n-tell.

[Matthew P]

On 6/3/2024 at 9:33 AM, KSMooniac said:

The OPP regulation is a very valuable path for owners like us in this situation.  There is quite a bit of latitude on the "production" of said parts, and the owner does NOT have to literally make the part themselves.  They only have to be involved with the specification and direction of the production, and only install them on their own plane.  (ie don't make and sell them to get around PMA rules!)  The specification can be as simple as "duplicate an existing part using the same materials and dimensions," and that is perfectly proper.  In this case, the machinist friend can make a batch of them without worry and distribute to individuals.  

I would very much like to buy a set as well if you and the friend are willing.  If he makes a batch, the price could be lower for everyone.  If you want to create a paper trail, you could have anyone interested complete a simple form to create the specification and then everything is above-board.  (This is how companies like MacFarlane handle making duplicate engine control cables or similar where they do not have a PMA!)

If you need a scrap version for destructive test, I'd suggest talking to Maxwell or Top Gun or similar and see if they have any in their box of misc hardware that is used for show-n-tell.

Thanks, I've reached out to them but no success, hopefully the metalurgist will be able to recommend the appropriate material, I'm sure there are resources regarding the types of metals used with aircraft gearing.

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, Matthew P said:

Thanks, I've reached out to them but no success, hopefully the metalurgist will be able to recommend the appropriate material, I'm sure there are resources regarding the types of metals used with aircraft gearing.

I would be as concerned with what proper heat treat (method, hardness, depth), as much as the material itself.

[carusoam]

MS has a metallurgist around here somewhere… he makes a great resource…

we also have sources of pre-flown parts… ask @Alan Fox

 

OPP is deigned for this exact situation…

parts are no longer available from the original resource…

 

of course you may want to check with the people that built the gear box originally… it might be ITT, look in the parts manual for any available details…

this thing might be used in other airplanes, not Mooney specific.

 

PP guessing only… not a mechanic or mechanical engineer.

Best regards,

-a-

[MikeOH]

Further guess: may not have even been originally designed for aircraft!

[PT20J]

I'd contact Frank Crawford at Mooney. I don't know if the 40:1 gears were a Mooney produced part or a Dukes part. But if they were a Mooney part, Frank might be willing to look up the specs. He may not be able to share a complete proprietary drawing, but If he can email you the material and any heat treating, you could use that as approved data for a one off OPP.

 

[Matthew P]

On 6/3/2024 at 9:33 AM, KSMooniac said:

The OPP regulation is a very valuable path for owners like us in this situation.  There is quite a bit of latitude on the "production" of said parts, and the owner does NOT have to literally make the part themselves.  They only have to be involved with the specification and direction of the production, and only install them on their own plane.  (ie don't make and sell them to get around PMA rules!)  The specification can be as simple as "duplicate an existing part using the same materials and dimensions," and that is perfectly proper.  In this case, the machinist friend can make a batch of them without worry and distribute to individuals.  

I would very much like to buy a set as well if you and the friend are willing.  If he makes a batch, the price could be lower for everyone.  If you want to create a paper trail, you could have anyone interested complete a simple form to create the specification and then everything is above-board.  (This is how companies like MacFarlane handle making duplicate engine control cables or similar where they do not have a PMA!)

If you need a scrap version for destructive test, I'd suggest talking to Maxwell or Top Gun or similar and see if they have any in their box of misc hardware that is used for show-n-tell.

Thanks, I've reached out to them but no success, hopefully the metalurgist will be able to recommend the appropriate material, I'm sure there are resources regarding the types of metals used with aircraft gearing.

[Matthew P]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

I would be as concerned with what proper heat treat (method, hardness, depth), as much as the material itself.

That's why I'm looking for used parts so that the metalurgist can determine that

[MikeOH]

Based on this article, the method(s) for gear heat treating sounds pretty complex to perform correctly even after knowing such basics as hardness and depth: https://gearsolutions.com/features/heat-treat-processes-for-gears/

 

[Matthew P]

55 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Based on this article, the method(s) for gear heat treating sounds pretty complex to perform correctly even after knowing such basics as hardness and depth: https://gearsolutions.com/features/heat-treat-processes-for-gears/

 

Your point being?

[MikeOH]

20 minutes ago, Matthew P said:

Your point being?

That just a quick Google shows proper heat treating is NOT all that straightforward even if you know hardness and depth.

Point being that while I appreciate your efforts in coming up with an alternative I, for one, am going to be VERY cautious about ANY aftermarket gear set.  Many of us are flying older Mooneys which likely would be totaled if gear upped.  While you certainly don't want to fly the old gears to failure, hence the inspections, it would be very painful irony to have replacement gears fail after installation, maybe 100s of hours later, due to fatigue failure even if the teeth are hardened to prevent excessive wear.

Sorry if my critical/cynical nature bothers you but if you plan on building more than one set I doubt that my skepticism is going to be unique.  Seems better to bring it up early in the process rather than later.

No doubt I would love to have a PROVEN alternate to the present unobtainium situation

Good luck!

[Matthew P]

42 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

That just a quick Google shows proper heat treating is NOT all that straightforward even if you know hardness and depth.

Point being that while I appreciate your efforts in coming up with an alternative I, for one, am going to be VERY cautious about ANY aftermarket gear set.  Many of us are flying older Mooneys which likely would be totaled if gear upped.  While you certainly don't want to fly the old gears to failure, hence the inspections, it would be very painful irony to have replacement gears fail after installation, maybe 100s of hours later, due to fatigue failure even if the teeth are hardened to prevent excessive wear.

Sorry if my critical/cynical nature bothers you but if you plan on building more than one set I doubt that my skepticism is going to be unique.  Seems better to bring it up early in the process rather than later.

No doubt I would love to have a PROVEN alternate to the present unobtainium situation

Good luck!

Well, evidently you don't have an electric landing gear actuator and thereby it doesn't impact you, for those of us that do, we have no options as mooney refuses to build anymore replacement gears so there are NONE available, our only options are to, demod the aircraft to put the Johnson bar in, pay $8K for a used actuator with unknown condition of gear wear, or attempt to determine if the OPP route is possible. You don't want to subscribe, that's fine, doesn't really affect you...I'm doing what the gearing manufacturer that I am working with, that makes gears for a living, and trying to get a copy of a new set of fears, which a member of this community was nice enough to loan me, trying to get a bad set of gears so the metalurgist can determine the type of material and heat treatment, etc...all this, at the recommendation of the gear manufacturing company to save the cost of them having to determine everything in order to hopefully make it affordable...so far I have found a machine shop that specializes in the scanning and creating of the cad file, a metalurgist that is willing to do the testing for free...so if it turns out that it can't be done...well then we'll just have to wait and see, gut not going to let someone's Google search comments. Keep me from trying since it doesn't appear anyone else is attempting to address the issue...thanks for your time