Cam Guard creating starter adapter slipping

[NewMoon]

Has anyone had the starter adapter slipping after using Cam Guard? 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, NewMoon said:

Has anyone had the starter adapter slipping after using Cam Guard? 

Heard it before.  I don’t believe there is any conclusive evidence, but I have some Cam Guard malingering on the shelf for now.

[NewMoon]

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Heard it before.  I don’t believe there is any conclusive evidence, but I have some Cam Guard malingering on the shelf for now.

Ok, when did you hear about it? 

[GeeBee]

I have used Camguard for over 1000 hours in my Continental with no slipping. 

I have also ran it over 2000 hours in a Cessna 402, which would be 4000 hours in a Mooney. No problems.

The best protection against starter adaptor wear is good battery, good mags and good starting technique. If it catches within 3 blades your starter adapter will last a long time.

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, NewMoon said:

Has anyone had the starter adapter slipping after using Cam Guard? 

Twice.

In 2015 after owning an Ovation about 10 months I decided to put in Camguard on my oil change. I flew up to Lubbock the next day and noticed on starting it in Lubbock that something was slipping, but it caught. I learned about the starter adaptor that day when I got back. I was told that the lightweight Iskra starters that Continental used were junk and that plus the fact that I had 1000 hours on the adaptor was the problem, not the Camguard. I put in an expensive rebuilt adaptor and an Energizer heavy 646275 starter. 

(I owned a Bravo in between and used Camguard - obviously no problem since it’s a Lycoming - no starter adaptor)

In 2022 after getting the Acclaim I started using Camguard, within a few months the starter adaptor started slipping, but this time the aircraft total time was only about 220 hours. Again it had an Iskra starter for the first 180 hours which I changed out immediately with the Energizer when I bought it.

My take is that the Iskra is a weak link and causes kickbacks and I can only go by my personal experience, but in my opinion the properties of Camguard, speeded things up on whatever slight slippage I wasn’t noticing before. I haven’t used Camguard since. 

The Continental camshaft is on the bottom, bathed in oil, unlike the Lycoming which sits at the top and the oil runs off. I don’t see the need for Camguard in the Continental especially since two out of the two times that I used it in a Continental I had adaptor issues. I’d rather not go three for three and don’t need to find out if it was highly coincidental.

(Also I never used it in an ‘83 231 with a Continental TSIO360GB a never had a starter adaptor issue or a camshaft issue.)

 

In 2022 here was that discussion:

 

[Pinecone]

Considering how many people use Cam Guard without issues, I don't see a causal relationship.

But make up your own mind.

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, NewMoon said:

Ok, when did you hear about it? 

Very likely it was reading about the issues @LANCECASPER had (see above) that turned me off.

[A64Pilot]

This may sound crazy, but if it did cause starter clutch slipping, I’d consider that a good sign for us Lycoming guys that don’t have clutches to worry about, it’s telling me that it reduces friction.

Take wet motorcycle clutches for example, if you use a modern energy saving oil in your motorcycle with a wet clutch it can cause clutch slipping, this is because the energy saving oil really works, it reduces friction and a clutch relies on friction of course.

[philiplane]

I've used Camguard in dozens of IO-550 Continental engines accumulating 300 to 600 hours each, annually. The few starter adapter problems that did occur, have been with those that started life with the Iskra starters. 

Camguard is primarily an anti-corrosive agent. The anti-wear properties come from that. It prevents rust, which means the internal parts aren't losing metal and wearing down. Every time you shut down, you get a microscopic layer of rust. The next start up scrapes that off. So every time you run the engine, you're losing metal. Continentals made after 2009 seem to rust much faster internally. Especially the cams and lifters. Camguard does an excellent job of reducing rust in humid environments. I have one client who insists on using Aeroshell 15w50 in his Cirrus SR22T. (He gets a new one every three years). Everyone else uses Phillips XC20w50 and Camguard. The engine on Aeroshell is consistently rustier at annual, as viewed with a borescope. And the oil analysis confirms this. 

[PT20J]

There is a whole BeechTalk thread about this. Bottom line, Camguard does not contain any friction modifiers and does not affect starter adapters. Some oils are more prone to causing slippage than others, but only if the starter adapter is  worn out.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=79247&start=0

 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

There is a whole BeechTalk thread about this. Bottom line, Camguard does not contain any friction modifiers and does not affect starter adapters. Some oils are more prone to causing slippage than others, but only if the starter adapter is  worn out.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=79247&start=0

 

I was convinced to believe that on my Ovation that had 1000 hours on it and slipped on the 2nd start after Camguard. I became much less convinced when it happened on the Acclaim that had only 220 hours on it and after the Camguard was added started slipping. Once may be anecdotal, twice may be coincidental, I don’t want to know what three times is.

For those who love it in their Continental, use it. But now that @NewMoon switched to Camguard and soon after his starter adaptor is slipping, I’m sticking with Phillips 20/50 XC.

[PT20J]

11 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I was convinced to believe that on my Ovation that had 1000 hours on it and slipped on the 2nd start after Camguard. I became much less convinced when it happened on the Acclaim that had 220 hours on it after the Camguard was added. Once may be anecdotal, twice may be coincidental, I don’t want to know what three times is.

For those who love it in their Continental, use it. But now that @NewMoon switched to Camguard and soon after his starter adaptor is slipping, I’m sticking with Phillips 20/50 XC.

According to this article, it might be the Iskra starter, not the Camguard. 

https://www.csobeech.com/files/BOB-1015.pdf
 

[LANCECASPER]

On 2/6/2024 at 12:37 PM, PT20J said:

According to this article, it might be the Iskra starter, not the Camguard. 

https://www.csobeech.com/files/BOB-1015.pdf
 

All of my posts on here mention the Is-Krap starter. It is junk, no doubt. But surprisingly one lasted 1000 hours on the Ovation, and yes, should have been changed long before, had I known.

But if adding the Camguard to that combo (Continental/Iskra) is followed by adaptor slippage soon after, multiple times, I’m not convinced that there is no effect from the Camguard.

I’m not saying anyone else shouldn’t have the privilege of experiencing this also, I just don’t want to again. 

EDIT: The person I spoke with at Niagara, and the person at G & N, both said that they hear it often from customers that call, that after adding Camguard the adaptor started slipping. Both of their recommendations were to use nothing but oil, and not synthetic oil. It could be all coincidental, but since they do hundreds of these a year I am going to listen. 

I used Camguard in every Bravo that I owned, even though it wasn't specifically recommended for turbo-charged airplanes, and would definitely use it in any Lycoming since the camshaft is on top and the oil runs off and results in "dry" starts without it.

Three reasons I personally am not going to use it in my Continental: 

1) My person experience that I mentioned

2) the "cam" in Camguard means it's sold as a protection for lubrication running off of the camshaft. In thinking about it, since the camshaft on a Continental is at the bottom and is not "dry", the main reason for using it is not relevant on a Continental, although it may help in cylinder walls, etc.

3) for some reason the TCM (Continental) in SIL99-2B specifically says not to use any additives. Whether that has to do with the starter adaptor I don't know. 

[PT20J]

According to the article, the problem is that the adapter has to turn backwards a full turn to completely release the spring or the spring and/or the shaft will wear. The lightweight starters are gear driven and don’t turn backwards easily, so they wear out the starter adapters. But, I don’t have any first hand experience —  I’m a Lycoming guy .

[NewMoon]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Twice.

In 2015 after owning an Ovation about 10 months I decided to put in Camguard on my oil change. I flew up to Lubbock the next day and noticed on starting it in Lubbock that something was slipping, but it caught. I learned about the starter adaptor that day when I got back. I was told that the lightweight Iskra starters that Continental used were junk and that plus the fact that I had 1000 hours on the adaptor was the problem, not the Camguard. I put in an expensive rebuilt adaptor and an Energizer heavy 646275 starter. 

(I owned a Bravo in between and used Camguard - obviously no problem since it’s a Lycoming - no starter adaptor)

In 2022 after getting the Acclaim I started using Camguard, within a few months the starter adaptor started slipping, but this time the aircraft total time was only about 220 hours. Again it had an Iskra starter for the first 180 hours which I changed out immediately with the Energizer when I bought it.

My take is that the Iskra is a weak link and causes kickbacks and I can only go by my personal experience, but in my opinion the properties of Camguard, speeded things up on whatever slight slippage I wasn’t noticing before. I haven’t used Camguard since. 

The Continental camshaft is on the bottom, bathed in oil, unlike the Lycoming which sits at the top and the oil runs off. I don’t see the need for Camguard in the Continental especially since two out of the two times that I used it in a Continental I had adaptor issues. I’d rather not go three for three and don’t need to find out if it was highly coincidental.

(Also I never used it in an ‘83 231 with a Continental TSIO360GB a never had a starter adaptor issue or a camshaft issue.)

 

In 2022 here was that discussion:

ok, good explanation 

 

[NewMoon]

6 hours ago, philiplane said:

I've used Camguard in dozens of IO-550 Continental engines accumulating 300 to 600 hours each, annually. The few starter adapter problems that did occur, have been with those that started life with the Iskra starters. 

Camguard is primarily an anti-corrosive agent. The anti-wear properties come from that. It prevents rust, which means the internal parts aren't losing metal and wearing down. Every time you shut down, you get a microscopic layer of rust. The next start up scrapes that off. So every time you run the engine, you're losing metal. Continentals made after 2009 seem to rust much faster internally. Especially the cams and lifters. Camguard does an excellent job of reducing rust in humid environments. I have one client who insists on using Aeroshell 15w50 in his Cirrus SR22T. (He gets a new one every three years). Everyone else uses Phillips XC20w50 and Camguard. The engine on Aeroshell is consistently rustier at annual, as viewed with a borescope. And the oil analysis confirms this. 

Great data from the front line, thx

[NewMoon]

and just to clarify,  I have not started using Camguard yet, but A&P is suggesting it after new jugs got installed after 3.5 months

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, NewMoon said:

and just to clarify,  I have not started using Camguard yet, but A&P is suggesting it after new jugs got installed after 3.5 months

Ah gotcha, but your starter is already slipping?

[NewMoon]

22 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Ah gotcha, but your starter is already slipping?

No, I was just asking the question before I start using Camguard on the recommendation of the A&P. I am sure hoping I don't fall victim as you have described. I need to figure out which starter I have. 

[philiplane]

The Iskra starters caused slippage anywhere from 200 to 800 hours, depending on the number of starts, and the length of each flight. The ones we had in training would slip at 200-500 hours. The owner-flown planes went much longer because they had far fewer start cycles on them.

Cirrus came out with s service bulletin calling for removal of the Iskra starters in 2010, but that was about 5 years after they first started using them. (2004 to 2009) So a lot of adapters were abused in that period of time. I don't recall ever seeing another airframe OEM issue a bulletin on them. I still come across Iskra starters on some planes today. Usually when the owners complain about the starter slipping.

[Echo]

Camguard=Boogeyman.  Riiiiight.  Sheesh.

[StevenL757]

On 2/6/2024 at 8:36 PM, philiplane said:

The Iskra starters caused slippage anywhere from 200 to 800 hours, depending on the number of starts, and the length of each flight. The ones we had in training would slip at 200-500 hours. The owner-flown planes went much longer because they had far fewer start cycles on them.

Cirrus came out with s service bulletin calling for removal of the Iskra starters in 2010, but that was about 5 years after they first started using them. (2004 to 2009) So a lot of adapters were abused in that period of time. I don't recall ever seeing another airframe OEM issue a bulletin on them. I still come across Iskra starters on some planes today. Usually when the owners complain about the starter slipping.

Is there any data from IO550G or IO550N engines with Energizer starters experiencing slippage while using 20w50 or 15w50 with or without Camguard?  Forgive me if I missed it anywhere here or another thread.

[Mac80]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:27 AM, A64Pilot said:

Take wet motorcycle clutches for example, if you use a modern energy saving oil in your motorcycle with a wet clutch it can cause clutch slipping, this is because the energy saving oil really works, it reduces friction and a clutch relies on friction of course.

This is fact. You must use motorcycle oil designed for wet clutches or oil designed for Honda side by side engines or you will need to rebuild the Honda transmission. As I understand what the Honda tech told me it is the oil from engine that also lubricates the transmission and clutches and never use extended use or normal engine oil in the crankcase. If an oil reduces friction then a clutch that must have friction will not work well if at all.

I use camguard in my planes especially in winter as I have a lycoming cam lobe failure in the past.

 Like to see wear results on piston rings and cylinders and oil consumption changes with and without camguard. 
 

 

 

 

[A64Pilot]

I don’t think Camguard is intended or advertised to be a friction modifier. I think it’s intended to be a corrosion preventative, but I’m no expert on oils. I only know what I read, I have had no formal education on oil.

But I’ve not dug into it so I don’t know. Corrosion is I’m sure one reason why cams fail, but I suspect it’s not a very big reason or I’d suspect that there would be a huge difference in cam failures in aircraft in Arizona and Florida or no failures in flight school aircraft that fly several times a week, but they fail too.

The odd thing is I feel certain that “back in the day” they didn’t fail, why? Can it be as simple as age? Back then they weren’t that old? Fuel changed, 100LL is different than the fuel it replaced, could that be a factor? I suspicion part of it is the cams themselves are different somehow, meaning it’s the newer cams that are failing, that would explain why the Snowbirds in my neighborhood aren’t losing cams, vast majority of their aircraft are antiques, with antique engines, or maybe on the old cams the ones that were going to fail did so years ago, leaving only the ones that don’t fail in service?

About at least 1/3 of my neighborhood are snowbirds, that is “Home” is up North and they go home every Summer, and they all own aircraft and none of them that I’m aware of preserve their engines and most are Lycomings. They do this every year, none fly their airplanes home. For some reason none have lost cams, a few I think have ended up with polished bores of course, but most haven’t. 

Frankly I can’t explain Lycoming cam failures, I can’t find any higher incidence in failures based on well, anything.

I have never seen any evidence of internal corrosion of engines that haven’t spent long periods of time not being flown, and oddly sometimes no or only light corrosion in engines that haven’t flown in years while others literally right next door have serious corrosion. There are several airplanes in my neighborhood that have sat for years, sometimes the Husband dies and it’s years before the Wife sells his airplane. One a year or so ago was a very pristine twin Comanche, sat for years, bought by a couple of A&P’s. One cylinder had light corrosion, both cams were fine, they pulled a couple of cylinders to inspect. There is a C-140 that has sat for about the same time, it’s Continental is rusted so bad it’s seized. Same neighborhood both in dry as in no leaks hangers.

My Wife inherited a 1923 Ford Model-T. Without getting too deep into it I’m nearly certain the car wasn’t operated likely since 1938 when I think it was restored. Anyway it had a couple of leaking valves and I pulled the head to re-cut valve seats and replace the valves. Car had been stored in several locations mostly Ohio in a barn type building then several years in a garage in Al and in a car transport trailer. Anyway there was zero as in no corrosion in the engine or cam. I expected pretty severe corrosion of course but there was none, not light corrosion but none. I can’t explain why. It had sat unused and no preserving for over 80 years.

Then take boats, just about every larger boat that sits in salt water has salt water in the exhaust system, many sit for months at a time or longer, yet significant internal corrosion is very rare? I can’t explain that either. I mean they sit and some cylinder of course has an open exh valve and there is salt water in the exhaust, why don’t they rust solid? There is nothing special about their engines, they aren’t built from special metals, many are just “marinized” car and little tractor / forklift etc engines, sailboats that have little motors anyway.

So why do airplane engines often rust if unused? They do, I’ve seen too many rusted and pitted cylinders so I know they do, but everything from farm tractors to boats, lawnmowers etc unless they get water in the cylinder, don’t. Why is that? Most every lawnmower sits unused for months at a time every year, some just under tarps or whatever, yet they don’t rust or some do I’m sure but most don’t.

Sorry for the long post, engine corrosion is something that I have wondered about for years and it seems you can’t say for sure until you inspect.

So does Cam Guard help? Who knows, if I flew infrequently I’d probably use it, but I feel pretty sure that’s it’s been out long enough and used by enough people that if it caused any problems that we would know by now. 

I wish there was an “energy conserving” airplane oil though as I think reducing friction would likely make our engines last longer, perhaps it’s the ashless requirement that keeps that from being possible, or maybe the amount of oil sold doesn’t support spending $$$ on improving the oil?

[Will.iam]

When i bought my plane i started adding camguard to the oil. Within 6 months the starter adapter slipped once but then started fine after that and continued for 3 months until i got a second slip. Then it started fine again for another 3 months and at annual i had the starter adaptor overhauled. I have continued to use camguard religiously every oil change and it’s been 2.5 years now with not slips. The overhaul shop said if the adapter was on the verge of slipping the camguard most likely revealed a worn adapter anyway. I feel the risk of rusting out my engine trumps the fear of a starter adapter slipping. I fly at least once every 14 days and after seeing the tests of valves dipped in oil starting to rust after 3 days compared to camguard going 20 days i willl continue to use camguard.