Reliability of IO-360A3B6D

[Wingover]

Looking at several M20J with the IO-360A3B6D.  I hear about safety issues with the dual mags sitting on single shaft.

How concerned should I be looking at these engines?

[N201MKTurbo]

If you are looking at a J, 99.9% of them will have the dual mag. The only AD concerns it’s impulse coupling and it is the same impulse coupling used on the single mag.

BTW, I have inspected 3 of those impulse couplings lately. The limit of slop on the pawl pivot is 0.014”. All I have inspected had less than 0.002” of slop. Has anybody ever had one that failed the inspection?

[Wingover]

What can I expect to pay for the 500 inspection/overhaul?

[Ragsf15e]

12 minutes ago, Wingover said:

What can I expect to pay for the 500 inspection/overhaul?

Yep, what @bluehighwayflyer said, with independent mags you’ll need to do them both at 500 hours anyway, so it’s probably similar.

[Wingover]

Thanks guys

[N201MKTurbo]

21 minutes ago, Wingover said:

What can I expect to pay for the 500 inspection/overhaul?

A friend of mine just got a quote for an overhaul yesterday. It was $1600.

[Wingover]

Thanks guys

[KSMooniac]

You don't have to overhaul it every 500 hours of course, but replacing parts is always a possibility. As mentioned, choose a shop to do the work carefully, as there are some big ones that don't do a great job.

If you like the candidate plane but are still queasy about the D3000, there is now an option to replace it with dual electronic ignitions from Electroair, but at a fairly high cost. I'm in the middle of this right now and hope I'll be happy. The other option is to exchange the engine with the Lycoming factory at overhaul time for a conventional split mag -A3B6 version. That used to cost more, but now it is the same or even less. It is approved on the Mooney type certificate but you will need a few extra factory parts and different governor to make it work.

I had no worries with my D3000 experience over 16 years, but elected to go with electronic for performance improvement, and hopefully some potential redundancy improvement. If I had to buy another J today I wouldn't hesitate to get another D engine/mag, though.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk

[skykrawler]

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2005/06/14/05-11610/airworthiness-directives-teledyne-continental-motors-formerly-bendix-s-20-s-1200-d-2000-and-d-3000

Optional Terminating Action

(l) Installing a “Shower-of-Sparks” ignition system in place of a magneto system that has a riveted-impulse coupling assembly or a snap-ring impulse coupling assembly ends the repetitive inspection requirements specified in paragraph (i) of this AD. You can find more information on installing a “Shower-of-Sparks” ignition system in TCM Service Information Letter No. SIL648, dated October 18, 1994.

[201Mooniac]

I've had a D-3000 on my M20J for the 28 years Ive owned it and other than 500 hr inspections have never had a single issue with it.  In addition to using a shop that knows how to properly install it with new hold down hardware, I put a witness mark across the nut and check it during preflight (though I have a LoPresti cowling so I can inspect that through the left side access panel).

[Stan]

2 hours ago, Wingover said:

What can I expect to pay for the 500 inspection/overhaul?

I used this guy, recommended by a friend who had his done also, he found him on the Piper Forum.

Turnaround was about 2.5 weeks.

The total, minus my shipping to him was $502.80. It was done October 26, 2023.

 

flyguydon@comcast.net
904.483.0367

Don Downs
121 SW Cessna Ct.
Lake City. FL 32025

Best to communicate via text. 

[PT20J]

500 hour inspections are not unique to the dual mag; all non-electronic mags should get that. 

[toto]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

I used this guy, recommended by a friend who had his done also, he found him on the Piper Forum.

Turnaround was about 2.5 weeks.

The total, minus my shipping to him was $502.80. It was done October 26, 2023.

 

flyguydon@comcast.net
904.483.0367

Don Downs
121 SW Cessna Ct.
Lake City. FL 32025

Best to communicate via text. 

If I don’t go Electroair on my next round, I’m going with Don. He’s incredibly well respected on the Piper Forum, and I’ve recommended him here and to others on that basis. 

For reasons that pass understanding now, I had my 500 hour IRAN done last year by Kelly and they quoted me $675 but the final bill was almost $3000.

As others have mentioned, I’ve had zero problems with the dual mag and I really can’t imagine making a decision about an airplane based on it having dual vs separate mags. 

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, skykrawler said:

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2005/06/14/05-11610/airworthiness-directives-teledyne-continental-motors-formerly-bendix-s-20-s-1200-d-2000-and-d-3000

Optional Terminating Action

(l) Installing a “Shower-of-Sparks” ignition system in place of a magneto system that has a riveted-impulse coupling assembly or a snap-ring impulse coupling assembly ends the repetitive inspection requirements specified in paragraph (i) of this AD. You can find more information on installing a “Shower-of-Sparks” ignition system in TCM Service Information Letter No. SIL648, dated October 18, 1994.

FWIW, that AD does not apply to IO-360s, only IO-540s.   I don't think there are any Mooneys with IO-540s and dual mags.

[jetdriven]

I wouldn’t bolt anything that came out of Kelly’s factory, to my lawnmower.

[toto]

6 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I wouldn’t bolt anything that came out of Kelly’s factory, to my lawnmower.

Yeah. Honestly, based on recommendations here, my plan was to go with Select Aircraft at Lancaster, but they’re out of the dual mag business. Then I was going to go with Aircraft Ignition Services for the same reason, and they’re out of the dual mag business.

I’ve been on Piper Forum forever, and flyguydon is very active, knowledgeable and transparent, and I had tentatively planned to use him. But the airplane was in annual, and Kelly promised a five-day turnaround time. Kelly has a PMA for every D3000 part including the housing, and they’re the only company that can produce every component aiui, so my thinking was that I’m probably getting Kelly parts anyway.

C’est la vie. Aside from it being almost comically expensive (my IRAN cost more than Kelly sells an overhauled D3000 for), I’ve had no problems with it.

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, toto said:

Yeah. Honestly, based on recommendations here, my plan was to go with Select Aircraft at Lancaster, but they’re out of the dual mag business. Then I was going to go with Aircraft Ignition Services for the same reason, and they’re out of the dual mag business.

I’ve been on Piper Forum forever, and flyguydon is very active, knowledgeable and transparent, and I had tentatively planned to use him. But the airplane was jn annual, and Kelly promised a five-day turnaround time. Kelly has a PMA for every D3000 part including the housing, and they’re the only company that can produce every component aiui, so my thinking was that I’m probably getting Kelly parts anyway.

C’est la vie. Aside from it being almost comically expensive (my IRAN cost more than Kelly sells an overhauled D3000 for), I’ve had no problems with it.

FWIW, Kelly did the last 500 hour on mine in 2021, which was essentially an overhaul, and it's been great since.    I have nearly 340 hours on it since then.

[toto]

FWIW, Kelly did the last 500 hour on mine in 2021, which was essentially an overhaul, and it's been great since.    I have nearly 340 hours on it since then.

Probably similar to mine. They said

The Distributor Block, 2 Distributor Gears, 2 Coils and Housing needed to be replaced which was all above the price of the Inspection.

I’m still not sure why an intact D3000 housing needed to be replaced.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Probably similar to mine. They said

 

 

 

The Distributor Block, 2 Distributor Gears, 2 Coils and Housing needed to be replaced which was all above the price of the Inspection.

 

I’m still not sure why an intact D3000 housing needed to be replaced.

So, what did they reuse? It sounds like the magnet was all they could salvage.

[toto]

So, what did they reuse? It sounds like the magnet was all they could salvage.

No idea. Honestly I wish they had just contacted me and said the whole thing needs to be replaced, and I could have pursued a second opinion. (Or bought an overhauled unit from someone else.)

[PT20J]

I believe that original case was magnesium and corrosion prone. Kelly has a PMA aluminum part.

[toto]

7 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I believe that original case was magnesium and corrosion prone. Kelly has a PMA aluminum part.

Fair enough - maybe that was it.

[A64Pilot]

In my opinion the only issue with a (D) magneto is it’s becoming more and more difficult / expensive to have one overhauled and seemingly few of the younger generation of Mag specialists are taking them on, every year it seems the number of shops decreases.

That’s why I’m rooting for an electronic replacement, not because I think there is anything wrong with a (D) mag just it seems to be headed to the orphanage. I just hope what happened to ADSB will happen to them, that is they will become less expensive, but maybe not.

Another opinion of mine is slippage marks are fine, but I think during oil changes develop the habit of grabbing it and trying pretty hard to make it turn,  it shouldn’t of course.

[toto]

8 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

In my opinion the only issue with a (D) magneto is it’s becoming more and more difficult / expensive to have one overhauled and seemingly few of the younger generation of Mag specialists are taking them on, every year it seems the number of shops decreases.

That’s why I’m rooting for an electronic replacement, not because I think there is anything wrong with a (D) mag just it seems to be headed to the orphanage. I just hope what happened to ADSB will happen to them, that is they will become less expensive, but maybe not.

Another opinion of mine is slippage marks are fine, but I think during oil changes develop the habit of grabbing it and trying pretty hard to make it turn,  it shouldn’t of course.

Electroair does have a certified D-mag replacement now. It was too new for me when my 500-hour was up, but I’m hoping it has a good track record when the next one is due. It’s about 5 AMU iirc. 
 

ETA: Here it is 

[OR75]

any pictures of the Electroair system installed ?

the space between the firewall and the accessory panel is already pretty busy