It wasn't the battery

[Flash]

I've owned my M20J for 24 years and have flown it for about 3400 hours, but that doesn't mean I have any immunity from rookie mistakes or that I'm out of beginner's luck.

Last Sunday, when I started the plane to come back from Thanksgiving, the propeller blade hesitated a bit before catching. I made a mental note that my battery might be going.

Today (Saturday), when I headed to the plane to shoot some approaches in actual, the propeller moved a couple of times very slowly. I decided to get a jump start and fly anyway, given that my alternator has been working well and that, should that change, my route would keep me within a few minutes of a landing, and there was also nearby VMC. Plane started fine with the jump.

Shot the RNAV 29 into Petaluma and decided to make it a full stop and save about $17 on fuel compared to the price at my home base. Plane would not start after refueling. And the FBO couldn't jump a 24-volt battery, and they called the maintenance shop on the field and got no answer, and they called another mechanic who had no equipment to get me going. So this wasn't looking good, especially with a cross-country trip planned to begin with a flight to Window Rock Wednesday night (eventual destination is the Jacksonville (Fla.) marathon, which is Sunday, December 10). I ordered a new battery online with rapid delivery, and I was about to look up rental car options so that I could get home and then return to Petaluma once the battery was delivered.

That's when I saw a pilot driving out the gate, and I figured I'd ask him if he had any suggestions. He did. He told me the mechanic happened to be on the airport working on a plane. I found him. He tried to give me a jump from a 24-volt battery, but that didn't work. Then he gave me a tow over to his shop and tried a 24-volt power unit designed for jump starts. That didn't work the first couple of times. Finally, he asked me to look at my EDM 930; the battery was fine. The problem was my starter, which appeared to be fried. There was nothing to lose from trying one more time, so we did, and it caught, and I made it back home.

I am now cancelling my urgent battery order and putting in an urgent SkyTec order, instead. 

I'm lucky I (1) got the plane started, (2) found the mechanic at the field on a Saturday, (3) didn't have this happen at an unattended field or in the middle of my cross-country trip. And I'm an idiot for not having looked at my engine analyzer to learn that the reason the prop wasn't spinning had little to do with the battery. I should have guessed this earlier, considering the battery is only a year old. But my previous starter issues have been either that they wouldn't engage or that they wouldn't spin at all. I had no experience with a starter problem looking the same as a weak battery.

[Ragsf15e]

28 minutes ago, Flash said:

I've owned my M20J for 24 years and have flown it for about 3400 hours, but that doesn't mean I have any immunity from rookie mistakes or that I'm out of beginner's luck.

Last Sunday, when I started the plane to come back from Thanksgiving, the propeller blade hesitated a bit before catching. I made a mental note that my battery might be going.

Today (Saturday), when I headed to the plane to shoot some approaches in actual, the propeller moved a couple of times very slowly. I decided to get a jump start and fly anyway, given that my alternator has been working well and that, should that change, my route would keep me within a few minutes of a landing, and there was also nearby VMC. Plane started fine with the jump.

Shot the RNAV 29 into Petaluma and decided to make it a full stop and save about $17 on fuel compared to the price at my home base. Plane would not start after refueling. And the FBO couldn't jump a 24-volt battery, and they called the maintenance shop on the field and got no answer, and they called another mechanic who had no equipment to get me going. So this wasn't looking good, especially with a cross-country trip planned to begin with a flight to Window Rock Wednesday night (eventual destination is the Jacksonville (Fla.) marathon, which is Sunday, December 10). I ordered a new battery online with rapid delivery, and I was about to look up rental car options so that I could get home and then return to Petaluma once the battery was delivered.

That's when I saw a pilot driving out the gate, and I figured I'd ask him if he had any suggestions. He did. He told me the mechanic happened to be on the airport working on a plane. I found him. He tried to give me a jump from a 24-volt battery, but that didn't work. Then he gave me a tow over to his shop and tried a 24-volt power unit designed for jump starts. That didn't work the first couple of times. Finally, he asked me to look at my EDM 930; the battery was fine. The problem was my starter, which appeared to be fried. There was nothing to lose from trying one more time, so we did, and it caught, and I made it back home.

I am now cancelling my urgent battery order and putting in an urgent SkyTec order, instead. 

I'm lucky I (1) got the plane started, (2) found the mechanic at the field on a Saturday, (3) didn't have this happen at an unattended field or in the middle of my cross-country trip. And I'm an idiot for not having looked at my engine analyzer to learn that the reason the prop wasn't spinning had little to do with the battery. I should have guessed this earlier, considering the battery is only a year old. But my previous starter issues have been either that they wouldn't engage or that they wouldn't spin at all. I had no experience with a starter problem looking the same as a weak battery.

Good lesson for sure.  I feel like after we’ve had our plane for a while, I’ve had mine for ten years, we get a little complacent in thinking it has always worked, so it will always work. Sometimes I think I know it too well, and might suppose that something is minor or the airplane will still get me where I need to go when I should be looking deeper.

[RoundTwo]

So far, it sounds like you’ve successfully eliminated your battery from the list of possible suspects, but it doesn’t yet sound like you’ve proven that the problem is the starter itself. There are several other less costly components in play than a starter and it could also be that you’ve simply got a loose wire somewhere. Before you go through the hassles of disassembly required to remove the starter, I’d check the voltage going to the starter while it is being cranked to see if it is getting all the juice. Depending on the results of that test, you’ll know what to focus on, the starter itself of the wiring/solenoid between the battery and the starter.

Good luck and let us know what you find the problem to be when it’s all fixed.

Chuck

[JModelDave]

Chuck is correct, check all wiring including the ground to the engine to make sure connections are clean and tight. We have also seen in our shop that a faulty starter contactor can sometimes cause similar problems.

[Utah20Gflyer]

I had this exact scenario, except I installed the new battery and found it didn’t change anything.  So I wasted 400 dollars.  Not the biggest mistake in the world but a little frustrating.  I installed a sky tech starter a month later at annual and that resolved the issue.  In my case I never required a jump and the plane always started after an attempt or two.  
 

 

[Bartman]

I had the same thing happen a few years ago and it bought me the opporunity to drive a rental from KDTS to Lexington KY.   That Skytec started was installed in 2005 just before I bought the aircraft, and this one is going on nearly 10 years.  I am considering sending it in for rebuild if that is an option.

[A64Pilot]

Definitely remove and clean all connections, it’s more often the ground for some reason and don’t forget the engine to airframe ground strap.

Even if it is the starter having good clean connections wasn’t wasted time.

Actually now that I think about it for a sec, not having a deep voltage drop on the battery is an indicator of a poor connection, which could as has been said be in the relay.

Connecting a multi-meter to the Starter and comparing its voltage to battery voltage during starting could be an indicator, but only if the bad connection is on the Pos side, if it’s the ground that check won’t show a voltage difference.

[Bolter]

I had a skytec starter that started acting up randomly on heat-soaked starts.  There would be no-turning at all of the prop, and the solenoid in the cockpit (near co-pilots feet) was clicking like a low battery issue.  You may have the same problem.  If I spent enough time troubleshooting, things cooled down enough that it started, apparently magically.  It was random, as if it required the starter motor to stop on the exact bad spot.  It happened once.  Then a year without issues, and it happened twice in a few months.  It was difficult to troublehshoot as a random event that only happened when hot and would fix itself when it cooled off.  It did seem to have a preference for when people were watching... :-) 

I did replace the starter and as far as I know (plane was sold later) still working without issue, for years.  

The repair is still replace or overhaul the skytec, so you are not on the wrong path if this is the problem.  

[1980Mooney]

17 hours ago, Flash said:

I've owned my M20J for 24 years and have flown it for about 3400 hours, but that doesn't mean I have any immunity from rookie mistakes or that I'm out of beginner's luck.

I am now cancelling my urgent battery order and putting in an urgent SkyTec order, instead. 

 

6 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

So far, it sounds like you’ve successfully eliminated your battery from the list of possible suspects, but it doesn’t yet sound like you’ve proven that the problem is the starter itself. There are several other less costly components in play than a starter and it could also be that you’ve simply got a loose wire somewhere. Before you go through the hassles of disassembly required to remove the starter, I’d check the voltage going to the starter while it is being cranked to see if it is getting all the juice. Depending on the results of that test, you’ll know what to focus on, the starter itself of the wiring/solenoid between the battery and the starter.

Good luck and let us know what you find the problem to be when it’s all fixed.

 

5 hours ago, JModelDave said:

Chuck is correct, check all wiring including the ground to the engine to make sure connections are clean and tight. We have also seen in our shop that a faulty starter contactor can sometimes cause similar problems.

 

35 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Definitely remove and clean all connections, it’s more often the ground for some reason and don’t forget the engine to airframe ground strap.

Even if it is the starter having good clean connections wasn’t wasted time.

Actually now that I think about it for a sec, not having a deep voltage drop on the battery is an indicator of a poor connection, which could as has been said be in the relay.

Connecting a multi-meter to the Starter and comparing its voltage to battery voltage during starting could be an indicator, but only if the bad connection is on the Pos side, if it’s the ground that check won’t show a voltage difference.

As suggested by many, before ordering and changing parts, it is best to diagnose the problem.  Starter/battery problems can be frustrating. Yes changing things may do it but it might be overkill.

Here is a guided step by step diagnosis procedure:

https://skytec.aero/aircraft-starter-performance-issues/

And a kitplane/experimental hands-on testimonial:

https://www.kitplanes.com/starter-trouble/

[Flash]

24 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

 

As suggested by many, before ordering and changing parts, it is best to diagnose the problem.  Starter/battery problems can be frustrating. Yes changing things may do it but it might be overkill.

Here is a guided step by step diagnosis procedure:

https://skytec.aero/aircraft-starter-performance-issues/

And a kitplane/experimental hands-on testimonial:

https://www.kitplanes.com/starter-trouble/

Thanks. I got some smoke from the starter on the try just before the one that finally worked, and this says smoke is an "indication[] that the starter is in need of repair."

[1980Mooney]

40 minutes ago, Flash said:

Thanks. I got some smoke from the starter on the try just before the one that finally worked, and this says smoke is an "indication[] that the starter is in need of repair."

"Smoke" (other than coming from the exhaust on start) is always a bad day on an airplane.....  That must have been some smoke if you could see it while cranking the engine - I am assuming with the cowling on!  Glad you didn't have a fire and made it home safe.

Edited December 3, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[Flash]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

"Smoke" (other than coming from the exhaust on start) is always a bad day on an airplane.....  That must have been some smoke if you could see it while cranking the engine - I am assuming with the cowling on!  Glad you didn't have a fire and made it home safe.

It was a small amount wafting up from the starter side (pilot's side) of the cowling on the attempt right before the attempt that actually got the plane started.

Today, I went back to the plane to confirm that I need a 149 and not a 122 and to take care of a couple of unrelated things. While I was there, I figured I'd try to start the plane. That was a dumb thing to do, because it worked. It was a bit sluggish for a second, but it caught. And then I shut it down, and I started it again.

I still don't feel comfortable heading out across the country with this starter, so all I did by testing out the starter was to make myself feel worse about replacing it now. But I still think I'm better off replacing it now and being confident it will work (or as confident as one can be about any equipment on a GA airplane), rather than being worried that it will let me down at the worst possible time.

[MikeOH]

Well, you could head off with the new starter in the baggage compartment...

[Flash]

13 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Well, you could head off with the new starter in the baggage compartment...

I actually thought about that for about a minute. Problems are (1) if I want a start when I'm at a field without an A+P, (2) if I want a start when I'm at a field with an A+P but I don't want to wait for the A+P to have time to do the install.

[1980Mooney]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:31 PM, Flash said:

Last Sunday, when I started the plane to come back from Thanksgiving, the propeller blade hesitated a bit before catching. I made a mental note that my battery might be going....Plane would not start after refueling. ...He tried to give me a jump from a 24-volt battery, but that didn't work. Then he gave me a tow over to his shop and tried a 24-volt power unit designed for jump starts. That didn't work the first couple of times. Finally, he asked me to look at my EDM 930; the battery was fine. The problem was my starter, which appeared to be fried. There was nothing to lose from trying one more time, so we did, and it caught, and I made it back home.

I am now cancelling my urgent battery order and putting in an urgent SkyTec order, instead. 

I'm lucky I (1) got the plane started, (2) found the mechanic at the field on a Saturday, (3) didn't have this happen at an unattended field or in the middle of my cross-country trip. And I'm an idiot for not having looked at my engine analyzer to learn that the reason the prop wasn't spinning had little to do with the battery. I should have guessed this earlier, considering the battery is only a year old. But my previous starter issues have been either that they wouldn't engage or that they wouldn't spin at all. I had no experience with a starter problem looking the same as a weak battery.

 

2 hours ago, Flash said:

It was a small amount wafting up from the starter side (pilot's side) of the cowling on the attempt right before the attempt that actually got the plane started.....I figured I'd try to start the plane. That was a dumb thing to do, because it worked. It was a bit sluggish for a second, but it caught. And then I shut it down, and I started it again.

I still don't feel comfortable heading out across the country with this starter, so all I did by testing out the starter was to make myself feel worse about replacing it now. But I still think I'm better off replacing it now and being confident it will work (or as confident as one can be about any equipment on a GA airplane), rather than being worried that it will let me down at the worst possible time.

 

2 hours ago, Flash said:

I actually thought about that for about a minute. Problems are (1) if I want a start when I'm at a field without an A+P, (2) if I want a start when I'm at a field with an A+P but I don't want to wait for the A+P to have time to do the install.

You are right to not feel comfortable heading out across the country with this current "starter system" condition".  As @RoundTwo said "but it doesn’t yet sound like you’ve proven that the problem is the starter itself.".  I say "starter system" because it is a system of wires, crimped connectors, bolted connections, solenoids, starter windings, brush contacts, Bendix, (and battery which you said you feel you can rule out) etc. and any "foreign material" that might contaminate it. Any single or combination of multiple weaknesses or failures can lead to starter problems.

You said that you saw smoke on the pilot's side which you think is from an electrical event.  That would mean high current with high resistance somewhere - hot enough to burn things that are not supposed to burn.  Or it could mean hydrocarbon contamination on the starter motor or solenoid contacts that burned - but there should not be any there.

Now you say that the problem is intermittent.  It would be ideal if you could find the "hot spot".  You may be right that replacing the starter, and disconnecting and reconnecting everything may solve it.  But if the intermittent problem is not the starter, you risk AOG at some distant airport.

Just my 2 cents....

Edit - if you search Mooneyspace or Beechtalk you don't find any threads on "smoke from a starter" and nothing "intermittent smoke".  There is one in an experimental forum where they put the wrong solenoid in during an engine upgrade.  There are some in automotive forums and it is related to the starter solenoid.

Smoke from an intermittent electrical event that I don't understand would scare the crap out of me.

Edited December 4, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[Flash]

6 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

You are right to not feel comfortable heading out across the country with this current "starter system" condition".  As @RoundTwo said "but it doesn’t yet sound like you’ve proven that the problem is the starter itself.".  I say "starter system" because it is a system of wires, crimped connectors, bolted connections, solenoids, starter windings, brush contacts, Bendix, (and battery which you said you feel you can rule out) etc. and any "foreign material" that might contaminate it. Any single or combination of multiple weaknesses or failures can lead to starter problems.

You said that you saw smoke on the pilot's side which you think is from an electrical event.  That would mean high current with high resistance somewhere - hot enough to burn things that are not supposed to burn.  Or it could mean hydrocarbon contamination on the starter motor or solenoid contacts that burned - but there should not be any there.

Now you say that the problem is intermittent.  It would be ideal if you could find the "hot spot".  You may be right that replacing the starter, and disconnecting and reconnecting everything may solve it.  But if the intermittent problem is not the starter, you risk AOG at some distant airport.

Just my 2 cents....

Edit - if you search Mooneyspace or Beechtalk you don't find any threads on "smoke from a starter" and nothing "intermittent smoke".  There is one in an experimental forum where they put the wrong solenoid in during an engine upgrade.  There are some in automotive forums and it is related to the starter solenoid.

Smoke from an intermittent electrical event that I don't understand would scare the crap out of me.

Thanks, @1980Mooney. Since the smoke occurred only once and only associated with starting, I don't think there's any real chance of smoke once the start has occurred, so I'm not scared of flying the plane. I'm not going to be applying current to the starter or the starter system while under way. And since SkyTec mentions the presence of smoke as an indication of a failing starter, it seems very likely that's what it is. The mechanic who changes out the starter will have a look at the area and the old starter; if he sees evidence that something other than the insides of the starter were combusting, he'll let me know.

[RoundTwo]

3 hours ago, Flash said:

Thanks, @1980Mooney. Since the smoke occurred only once and only associated with starting, I don't think there's any real chance of smoke once the start has occurred, so I'm not scared of flying the plane. I'm not going to be applying current to the starter or the starter system while under way. And since SkyTec mentions the presence of smoke as an indication of a failing starter, it seems very likely that's what it is. The mechanic who changes out the starter will have a look at the area and the old starter; if he sees evidence that something other than the insides of the starter were combusting, he'll let me know.

Yeah, this was kind of a big piece of the puzzle to leave out of your initial post. 

[N201MKTurbo]

What kind of starter do you have?

[thinwing]

i would check the starter solonoid first thing before doing anything else....this can be done by bypassing heavy leads from it to starter...

[Flash]

5 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

Yeah, this was kind of a big piece of the puzzle to leave out of your initial post. 

Yes, @RoundTwo, but in my defense my initial post wasn't written with the expectation that people would treat it as a request for diagnosis of my problem. I had already diagnosed the problem and just intended to share that it was, in this case, easy to mistake a starter problem for a battery problem. I definitely appreciated the insights of people who jumped in to point out that it's also possible to mistake a starter problem for another problem. Their efforts weren't wasted; I learned stuff I wouldn't have learned had I told them up-front that in this case, it sure seems like a starter problem. Thanks to all who offered insights.

[Flash]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

What kind of starter do you have?

SkyTec 149-NL/EC.

[N201MKTurbo]

6 hours ago, Flash said:

SkyTec 149-NL/EC.

I have one of those. Mine went south. I called up Sky Tec and asked them if they could repair it. They said I had to buy a new one and send them the broken one. They said if it was actually defective, they would send me some money back. It was way out of warrantee. Two weeks later they refunded all my money. 

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have one of those. Mine went south. I called up Sky Tec and asked them if they could repair it. They said I had to buy a new one and send them the broken one. They said if it was actually defective, they would send me some money back. It was way out of warrantee. Two weeks later they refunded all my money. 

Here is a 2017-2023 "SuperCub.org" thread on problems with Sky Tech starters in Lycoming installations.  Apparently, the legacy starters had lots of problems - they were basically crap.  Owners with fleet visibility witnessed multiple failures.  Things have gotten better apparently.  But rather than argue with every pissed off owner, regardless of legacy or more recent purchase, they just give buyers their money back - like you.

disappointed in Skytec starters (supercub.org)