First-Time Airplane Buyer, Need Advice

[Matt Wallace]

Hi.  I'm a private pilot with 125 hours and I'm thinking about buying a Mooney, probably an M20C.  It seems that this aircraft has a good combination of efficiency and performance, and would be good for time-building and cross-country flying.  I'm new to the process and I'm trying to figure things out.  I've been looking at some online ads for Mooney aircraft and I'm wondering whether I should get a VFR-only aircraft, or one that is IFR with /U or /G equipment.  I am working on my instrument rating and I would like to do the rest of my instrument training and checkride in the plane I buy, but there is a significant cost increase for IFR-certified airplanes.  I see VFR-only M20Cs for about $50k, with /U IFR planes for about $60-70k and /G IFR planes for about $80k, which is pushing my budget a little.  I am wondering if it is worth the extra cost to get an IFR aircraft, or if it would be better to get a VFR aircraft and put 150-200 hours on it and then sell it and buy an IFR aircraft.  Or perhaps I could keep the VFR plane and do my instrument rating in a flight school aircraft.  It seems like it would depend on how much actual IMC flying I am planning on doing.  I'm planning on mostly flying around Salt Lake City and basing the aircraft at U42.  It looks like many of the routes, departures, and approaches in the Salt Lake area require GPS, and the /U aircraft would probably not be very useful for IFR there.  I understand that it's very expensive to upgrade a VFR aircraft to IFR, and if I want to fly IFR I'm probably better off buying a plane that is already IFR.  

If you have any advice on this topic I'd appreciate it, and if there is any standard first-time airplane buyer literature I could take a look at, that'd be great.  

[DCarlton]

There are a lot of folks on this web site with more expertise than me, but I’ve owned my Mooney for twenty years and I look at aircraft ads often.  I’ve never noticed aircraft being frequently identified as VFR only.  Engine, airframe condition, damage history, maintenance history, interior, paint and yes avionics all influence the value.  I spent $18k on my panel right after I bought my plane because the radios and audio panel were in such bad shape.  Had nothing to do with IFR vs VFR.  Took me two years to get the plane in decent shape.  Look at everything.  It all adds up.  $70k plus or minus $10k is probably a good budget but have some in reserve for surprises.  

[MikeOH]

Two bits of advice:

1) Whatever you buy the single most important factor is consistent frequent use. I can’t stress this enough. Too many poor purchases begin with a plane that has been sitting.

2) Buy with the equipment you want. Selling later and/ or upgrading is NOT going to save you money… not to mention the aggravation!

[RoundTwo]

3 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Two bits of advice:

1) Whatever you buy the single most important factor is consistent frequent use. I can’t stress this enough. Too many poor purchases begin with a plane that has been sitting.

2) Buy with the equipment you want. Selling later and/ or upgrading is NOT going to save you money… not to mention the aggravation!

^^^this. Resist the cheap plane you can upgrade. Spend more now.

[glbtrottr]

At 125 hours, you’re just getting started…

My criteria is airframe condition first (no corrosion of any substance in or out) followed by an engine that meets your criteria of affordability / overhaul condition.

I’ve purchased airplanes that sat hangared and were in fine condition though sitting a while, and airplanes that were flown often yet had mediocre maintenance once you peeled back the onion. Good bones, engine and prop and you’re 90 percent of the way there.

I’m also the contrarian of the group when it comes to radios. Lots of people will happily spend your money and tell you to get the latest garmin 750 / 650 equipped airplane, complete with all sorts of me too gadgetry. As someone who has spent $80k on A radio stack in the past, I say hogwash unless you want to impress your forum buddies, make the avionics shop rich and happy or just have money to burn. A portable like a garmin 760, or even an iPad with foreflight get a ton done without keeping up with the joneses. Once you’ve spent a few hundred hours in your plane you can make some choices.

Remember a paint job will often set you back 15-40k, an engine overhaul 25-35k , gf upholstery $3-15k, and radios as little as $4k plus upwards of $60-80k with install costs of 50-100% of the radio cost- just because that’s what avionics shops charge these days.


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[M20F]

Everyone gets this backwards.  The first thing you need to do is find a local shop familiar with Mooney’s, good reputation, and a group of folks you can build a relationship with.  
 
Spend time getting to know them.  Watch and talk to them about the planes they are working on.  Talk to customers and get their feedback. 
 
Then use this network and others to find a plane.   Use your AI to read logbooks to filter it down to one’s worthy of a pre-buy.   Get a good pre-buy and enjoy the start of a journey. 
 
The most expensive, frustrating, and sometimes very heartbreaking part of aircraft ownership starts 1 second after you write the check.  You need to have a support function for this day one. 

[Pinecone]

IMO, it is best to buy the best airplane you can afford.  Engine and airframe condition are first and foremost.

But buying a marginally equipped aircraft, when you are planning on doing your instrument rating is not the best plan. You get your instrument rating and IMMEDIATELY you are not happy with your airplane as you want to be able to USE your rating.   And upgrading is much more expensive than buying the airplane already equipped.

And a lot of what you would want for IFR will be nice for VFR flying.

I would be fine with a 6 pack, but would definitely want a WAAS GPS.  An HSI makes approaches much easier.

Also, these days, using the avionics is a big part of IFR flying.  So getting a plane and doing your instrument rating in that plane with those avionics, would be a good thing.  That way you are not having to spend time to learn your avionics versus the school plane avionics.

Another thought. Due to your low time and no complex/retract, you will be looking at probably needing a good number of hours of dual from the insurance company.  So you can use that time to start working on your instrument rating.  You could even ask the insurance broker if they can get you a lower rate if you commit to more dual before soloing the airplane.

[Fly Boomer]

10 hours ago, Matt Wallace said:

If you have any advice on this topic I'd appreciate it, and if there is any standard first-time airplane buyer literature I could take a look at, that'd be great. 

I see the advice is already flowing freely, so I'll just say Welcome to MooneySpace!

[hubcap]

Buy the plane you want, or wait until you can afford the plane you want. If you buy a plane to "fix up" it will be in the shop while you could have been saving money for the plane you actually wanted. 

[cwaters]

I was in your position about 2 years ago, 100hr TT and working on IFR. I was debating VFR vs IFR planes and on one trip my wife and i got stuck at an airport with an overcast layer that was 500ft thick that was just sticking around at 800ft all day. Nothing to do with approaches and nothing really to do with enroute ifr flying, having the rating (and a capable plane) would have allowed us to get out of the airport and start our trip home. Now this was before i got my mooney and before i got my IFR. So i decided that i would have no use for a vfr only plane and the minimum equipment on board for me was starting to flesh out. I ended up getting a 77 J for 80k that was already IFR cert and then going to get my IFR in my plane. I have a modest panel, just a standard 6 pack and a non-Waas 430, back up nav com is klx 155. so i can shoot an ils (if it exists) to 200 ft and rnav (LNAV) to 500ft and for now that is all im really comfortable with in single pilot ifr no AP. 

 

All to say if you go with a vfr only plane and you get your ifr in a school plane remember the currency req for ifr and remember that current and proficient are not the same. I have a mooney buddy at my home airport that he and i fly about every week in one of our planes if not both and do approaches so that we stay current and proficient.

 

Buying and selling in a few years is a notion IMHO best left to the more experienced buyers and sellers. I bought my J for 80K in '21 and have no doubt it would go for more now days but i couldn't afford to replace it with anything out there right now so having it already and planning to keep it (ie not needing to replace it) is a good spot to be in. 

 

 

[Schllc]

I started looking with about 20 hours towards my ppl.  thinking I was going to get something cheap I could pay cash for and spend about 50k. 

After a month of looking and learning, i ended up spending almost 5 times that and had to finance, and I have never once even come close to regretting that choice. 

Lots of people telling you the same thing, buy the best plane you can afford.  Fixer uppers in aviation are not for the faint of heart.  They are nothing like an old house, car or boat.  You are captive to a system that is expensively frustrating on a good day! 

Make sure you find a plane that is flying often, well maintained and is the best you can afford. 

[Matt Wallace]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

I see the advice is already flowing freely, so I'll just say Welcome to MooneySpace!

Thanks!  It looks like this is a very supportive group.  

2 hours ago, hubcap said:

Buy the plane you want, or wait until you can afford the plane you want. If you buy a plane to "fix up" it will be in the shop while you could have been saving money for the plane you actually wanted. 

Yeah, this looks like the right path.  It's so tempting to buy the cheap airplane, but there have been times in the past when I've bought something because it was cheap and not because it was the thing that I really wanted, and that usually didn't turn out well.  So it looks like I should get an aircraft I actually want, which would be full IFR with a GPS.  I do have the money for that, but I am concerned about some of the stories about unexpected maintenance.  Assuming I get a pre-buy inspection from a mechanic and the aircraft has no significant issues at the time of purchase, what would I be looking at for unexpected maintenance (beyond annual inspection, tires, oil changes, etc.?)  I'm fine with fixing some minor issues, but if there is going to be $20-30k in unexpected maintenance during the first few hundred hours, that's going to be a problem. 

6 hours ago, M20F said:

Everyone gets this backwards.  The first thing you need to do is find a local shop familiar with Mooney’s, good reputation, and a group of folks you can build a relationship with.  
 
Spend time getting to know them.  Watch and talk to them about the planes they are working on.  Talk to customers and get their feedback. 
 
Then use this network and others to find a plane.   Use your AI to read logbooks to filter it down to one’s worthy of a pre-buy.   Get a good pre-buy and enjoy the start of a journey. 

 I think this is the right way to go, and is a better way to buy an airplane than browsing ads on the internet.  I live around Los Angeles, and I am planning to move to Salt Lake City in a few months, where I'd be flying at South Valley Regional Airport (U42).  Are there any Mooney groups in either of those two places that I could connect with?  

 

 

[cwaters]

10 minutes ago, Matt Wallace said:

Thanks!  It looks like this is a very supportive group.  

Yeah, this looks like the right path.  It's so tempting to buy the cheap airplane, but there have been times in the past when I've bought something because it was cheap and not because it was the thing that I really wanted, and that usually didn't turn out well.  So it looks like I should get an aircraft I actually want, which would be full IFR with a GPS.  I do have the money for that, but I am concerned about some of the stories about unexpected maintenance.  Assuming I get a pre-buy inspection from a mechanic and the aircraft has no significant issues at the time of purchase, what would I be looking at for unexpected maintenance (beyond annual inspection, tires, oil changes, etc.?)  I'm fine with fixing some minor issues, but if there is going to be $20-30k in unexpected maintenance during the first few hundred hours, that's going to be a problem. 

 I think this is the right way to go, and is a better way to buy an airplane than browsing ads on the internet.  I live around Los Angeles, and I am planning to move to Salt Lake City in a few months, where I'd be flying at South Valley Regional Airport (U42).  Are there any Mooney groups in either of those two places that I could connect with?  

 

 

Look at the west coast mooney group her on MS, best i can tell it stretches out to the eastern front of the Rockies and there is no mid-west group on here just east and west so some of the flatlanders are in there too also on FB 

 

DONT BUY CHEAP, avoid the urge its tempting for sure but look at a bunch of ads and really dig into some one the cheap ones (even if you have no intent to buy) search them online and see the flight history and check around on the plane without wasting the sellers time and your money. this will be extra work on your end but you will start to learn some of the lingo and some of the reasons they are so cheap. 

 

My J I got my pre-buy on an had nothing of note come from it. I budget about 2k/month on everything aviation related (from hangar, insurance, fuel, maint reserves, ...) some months that works and others it dosn't but so far for 2 yrs its averaged out nicely and i built a small maint reserve. My first annual was 2.5k and this yr was 4k (had some non 'needed' maint done because i felt it was time) 

Get a good pre-buy with a mech that you know and trust and (since you don't have a mech yet) ask around here and at the field for a mech people know and trust for mooneys. get their honest opinion and don't be afraid to walk from a deal. Best to not get emotionally involved until the check clears and flying it home. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

Personally I don’t enjoy the airplane buying process and all the stress that comes with trying to determine whether a particular plane is an acceptable risk, especially from another state (which I did). As a result I would recommend that you buy exactly what you want if that is at all a possibility.   Upgrading is also expensive and time consuming (which I did as well).   There really isn’t anything to be gained in finding a “deal”, you’ll pay one way or another.  I’m very happy with my plane now but it’s been a big effort to get it where I want it.  
 

[carusoam]

If you know…

1) Which Mooney you want to have forever… things get easier.

2) If you are not familiar with forever-plane economics… you will find the idea of buying and selling planes is expensive….

3) There is one MSer around here that buys a plane every other year or so… but, he isn’t buying the entry level plane…

4) avionics more than 20-30 years old are getting replaced with digital equivalents….

5) Ok to buy a plane with 30 year old avionics… but don’t be surprised how expensive it is to replace….

6) Get the most updated Mooney you can afford, that meets your current and future requirements….

7) Start reading up on PPIs…. Wallet protection!

+1 for favor the active plane over the hangar queen… 

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-