Time Building Offer in Eastern NC

[USNA12]

Hey all, so I bought my mooney to rapidly build time for ATP and Part 135 carriers. If anyone is near Eastern NC or RVA area I will be happy to meet up and go fly for a few hours. My schedule is fairly flexible.

[eman1200]

are you looking for a safety pilot?

[USNA12]

31 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

are you looking for a safety pilot?

Im looking for anyone that wants to build time with me that doesnt mind splitting costs associated because ive flown 100 hours in the last 45 days and it gets expensive haha. Im trying to average 30-50 hours a month and I am sure there is someone out there looking to build time.

[eman1200]

1 minute ago, USNA12 said:

Im looking for anyone that wants to build time with me that doesnt mind splitting costs associated because ive flown 100 hours in the last 45 days and it gets expensive haha. Im trying to average 30-50 hours a month and I am sure there is someone out there looking to build time.

so you want someone else to pay you money so you fly your plane and build hours......?

I see this posted sometimes in a local facebook group and I never get it.  "I want to build hours and I want someone else to pay me for half of it".  do people actually log time sitting right seat doing nothing?  that's crazy.

good luck though.

[USNA12]

I let all my friends handle the flight from the right seat and then the few that have mooney hours i let them take left or we switch off during longer trips? Not sure what the issue is haha. Literally the same thing any flight school is doing, except now people have the option to do it with me for way cheaper(pro rata) in a nicer and faster plane. Obviously youre not trying to build up to ATP mins otherwise you would understand the struggle

 

Thanks for your input!

[N201MKTurbo]

Are you a flight instructor? If so you can log instruction time and the student can log time. The only other way would be if one of you was under the hood and the other was safety pilot.

[N201MKTurbo]

By your logic, I’m going to start logging my airline flights as 737 time.

[ArtVandelay]

Are you a flight instructor? If so you can log instruction time and the student can log time. The only other way would be if one of you was under the hood and the other was safety pilot.

And safety pilots ride for free or even get paid if a CFI… not the other way around.

[midlifeflyer]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:36 AM, USNA12 said:

I let all my friends handle the flight from the right seat and then the few that have mooney hours i let them take left or we switch off during longer trips? Not sure what the issue is haha. Literally the same thing any flight school is doing, except now people have the option to do it with me for way cheaper(pro rata) in a nicer and faster plane. Obviously youre not trying to build up to ATP mins otherwise you would understand the struggle

 

Thanks for your input!

It depends. And I do understand the struggle. So good luck finding someone.

Before I moved away, my friend Chris and I had a semi-regular flying date. We'd get together after work, hop into an airplane and fly several approaches each as a way to maintain currency. Each the safety pilot for the other.  I even got to experiment on him when I was working on my CFII. Then we'd go to dinner. Of course, we shared the expense of the flight. (and dinner). Plenty of fly-ins together too. 

But pay to do someone a favor by just being  their safety pilot? Maybe you've seen that at "any" flight school, but I haven't in the past 30 years of flying primarily as a renter or club member in three different states. If they are doing that regularly at "some" flight school I wonder whether it's a local custom or a misreading of the regulations – thinking that a safety pilot must pay a pro rata share in order to log PIC or SIC in that role.  The closest I've seen was a few years ago when a pilot wanted to pay me for being their safety pilot.  I thought it was ridiculous but I think it still makes more sense as the other way around..

 

[RoundTwo]

Here’s a letter from the FAA on our flying club website regarding safety pilot and money.

Logging Safety Pilot Time and Cost Sharing

[N201MKTurbo]

25 minutes ago, RoundTwo said:

Here’s a letter from the FAA on our flying club website regarding safety pilot and money.

Logging Safety Pilot Time and Cost Sharing

So, it seems to say that the safety pilot can log PIC time if he clams to be PIC and the pilot flying can log PIC time because he is flying the plane.

[Andy95W]

12 hours ago, USNA12 said:

Hey all, so I bought my mooney to rapidly build time for ATP and Part 135 carriers. If anyone is near Eastern NC or RVA area I will be happy to meet up and go fly for a few hours. My schedule is fairly flexible.

I was in kind of the same boat 25 years ago.  I was an MEI and a buddy and I both needed multi engine  time.  So we split costs and I signed his log book as instruction given.  We both got jobs quickly.

I doubt you’ll find many people on Mooneyspace to share costs/time with you. But I bet you’ll have a lot of luck if you stop by your local flight school and talk to some CFIs there, or maybe some Commercial or Instrument students.

Good luck, we hope you succeed (even though you’re a squid).

Andy USMA88

[carusoam]

Let’s invite @201er to the conversation…

He has dug deep into the PIC logging rules not too long ago…

 

There is a couple of issues that arise when sharing flight time and expenses…

The FAA doesn’t want you riding right seat for dozens of hours and not having to pay attention… 

And your insurance company will want to know if your partner is PIC…. A simple process of putting their name and details in the records…

 

PP thoughts only, not a cfi….

Best regards,

-a-

[midlifeflyer]

18 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, it seems to say that the safety pilot can log PIC time if he clams to be PIC and the pilot flying can log PIC time because he is flying the plane.

That's "always" been the case under the regulations as written, although it was first the subject of a Chief Counsel opinion in 1993. There is a "but" - in order to log PIC the safety pilot needs to be acting as PIC. That's not a "claim;" it's an agreement. And it means being qualified to act as PIC - including applicable currency and and endorsements. Ad that's before you get to insurance issues.. 

I thought that the Trussel letter was interesting but obvious when it came out with the additional point that comes down to,  "we really don't care what two pilots decide to do about sharing expenses." I didn't even bother mentioning it in my Safety Pilot Rules article. Yes, it pre-dates the BasicMed change two months ago - the update is discussed in the current issue of IFR and the online version is behind a paywall. 

[USNA12]

Lots of good info thanks gents

On 2/3/2023 at 8:55 PM, Andy95W said:

I was in kind of the same boat 25 years ago.  I was an MEI and a buddy and I both needed multi engine  time.  So we split costs and I signed his log book as instruction given.  We both got jobs quickly.

I doubt you’ll find many people on Mooneyspace to share costs/time with you. But I bet you’ll have a lot of luck if you stop by your local flight school and talk to some CFIs there, or maybe some Commercial or Instrument students.

Good luck, we hope you succeed (even though you’re a squid).

Andy USMA88

The game this year was BS. at least we were undefeated during my tenure. Entire family is army, but as the best looking one I decided Marine Corps was the way to go(as I beg my SOAR friends to let me get back in but stay an officer until 3 years as a Major)

[carusoam]

Thank you for your service USNA12!

I’m glad you are here!

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:40 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

So, it seems to say that the safety pilot can log PIC time if he clams to be PIC and the pilot flying can log PIC time because he is flying the plane.

That has been the case for decades.  Not claims, but the two agree that the safety pilot IS the PIC.  But the safety pilot can only log the time when the person flying is under the hood., not the whole flight.  And they cannot log it as XC time.  The last was a letter for FAA at some point

The question in the letter was worded incorrectly to get a good answer.  There is no OBLIGATION for anyone other than the pilot acquiring the airplane (renting or using own or ...) to ever pay anything.  The question should be whether the safety pilot MAY pay for a pro rated share of the cost.

ANYONE in the airplane can share expenses.  Even non-pilots.  But the pilot cannot pay less than a full share.  2 people, the pilot has to pay at least half, 3 people, no less than 1/3 and so forth.

I know a while ago, some of the big schools for building time would send two students out in a twin with one flying and one safety pilot and switch.  Both logging PIC time

AND, to be complete,  you have to have a common purpose.  So your friend cannot say, hey I need to get to X, and you say, cool, I will fly you if you pay half.  If you are going to X and a friend asks to go along and offers to pay half, you are good to go.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

That has been the case for decades.  Not claims, but the two agree that the safety pilot IS the PIC.  But the safety pilot can only log the time when the person flying is under the hood., not the whole flight.  And they cannot log it as XC time.  The last was a letter for FAA at some point

The question in the letter was worded incorrectly to get a good answer.  There is no OBLIGATION for anyone other than the pilot acquiring the airplane (renting or using own or ...) to ever pay anything.  The question should be whether the safety pilot MAY pay for a pro rated share of the cost.

ANYONE in the airplane can share expenses.  Even non-pilots.  But the pilot cannot pay less than a full share.  2 people, the pilot has to pay at least half, 3 people, no less than 1/3 and so forth.

I know a while ago, some of the big schools for building time would send two students out in a twin with one flying and one safety pilot and switch.  Both logging PIC time

AND, to be complete,  you have to have a common purpose.  So your friend cannot say, hey I need to get to X, and you say, cool, I will fly you if you pay half.  If you are going to X and a friend asks to go along and offers to pay half, you are good to go.

So, if it is a rental plane you can split the total cost of the rental. If you own the plane you can only split the fuel and oil....

Of course, nobody really knows what goes on between friends in a cash transaction.

[Pinecone]

Then the fun question can be, how many people can log PIC at the same time?

[N201MKTurbo]

41 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Then the fun question can be, how many people can log PIC at the same time?

So, in an airplane that requires two pilots, can they both be under the hood and have a safety pilot in the jump seat?

[Fly Boomer]

12 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, in an airplane that requires two pilots, can they both be under the hood and have a safety pilot in the jump seat?

And, can the safety pilot in the jump seat act as PIC?

[Pinecone]

Hint, the number is 4.  Now figure out how.

[Bentonck]

My guess is that you would have to be in an airplane requiring two pilots to operate with both of them "under the hood" and two pilots in jump seats acting as safety pilots where it was agreed that they would act as PIC?  Thinking about it I don't think that makes sense either, though, because two of them would be logging SIC time.  Hrmmm

[midlifeflyer]

On 2/9/2023 at 8:36 AM, Pinecone said:

Then the fun question can be, how many people can log PIC at the same time?

FAA Chief Counsel kinda took the fun out of that in the 2018 Williams interpretation. One of the questions presented was the famous 3-person scenario. Trainee logging as sole manipulator in the left seat, safety pilot acting as PIC in the right seat, CFI giving instruction from the back seat logging PIC by virtue of being an instructor. It didn't take that much for the Chief Counsel to look at 91.109(a) and 91.195(g) and say that a CFI giving instruction must sit in a control seat. That takes care of pretty much all "back seat CFI" scenarios. 

One can say that is not really what the regs say; that is was pulling pieces from two regs and mixing it with a big cup of "this is the result we want." But that's the point. Can we come up with a scenario where we really think the FAA will say, "yeah, that'll work."

Without a CFI it's even clearer. The safety pilot rule specifically says, "No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless -
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot..."

So... who's your fourth? The CFI in the other back seat teaching the CFI who's teaching the trainee who...

[Pinecone]

If it is a multi crew aircraft, the Captain can log PIC time while sleeping. 

So pilot flying under the hood.  Safety Pilot.  CFI instruction and Captain (PIC).