Practical use of FIKI

[Falcon Man]

Hello fellow Mooniacs - I just started a new business venture in Seattle, WA and am concerned about the frequent icing conditions. My questions are:

1) As I would not fly in known icing conditions, is there much difference between a FIKI equipped Bravo vs. one with inadvertent icing equipment?

2) Is there anyone who has frequent experience flying out of Everett, WA, east out over the Cascades? I live in central Idaho and my weekly round trip would be from KSUN - KPAE.

Thanks,

Jeff

[MikeOH]

Sorry.  No direct experience, but KSUN scared the crap out of me for anything but VFR for this chicken (I might depart south IFR if temps were warm enough) We were going to fly up last March from southern California but the weather looked iffy; so we drove  Good decision as the weather was ugly (300-400 foot ceiling and below freezing!). I, personally, wouldn't want KSUN as home base during winter with any hope of a regular schedule.  But, again, I'm a weather chicken!

[ilovecornfields]

8 hours ago, Falcon Man said:

Hello fellow Mooniacs - I just started a new business venture in Seattle, WA and am concerned about the frequent icing conditions. My questions are:

1) As I would not fly in known icing conditions, is there much difference between a FIKI equipped Bravo vs. one with inadvertent icing equipment?

2) Is there anyone who has frequent experience flying out of Everett, WA, east out over the Cascades? I live in central Idaho and my weekly round trip would be from KSUN - KPAE.

Thanks,

Jeff

I believe @N252MK has some experience flying FIKI and non-FIKI airplanes out of Seattle but he’s not on here very often.

[MikeOH]

@Ragsf15e

Perhaps you have some advice for FM?

[GeeBee]

Inadvertent has no back up alternator and/or battery. 

You sling a lot of ice in that area and I would want everything I could get going for me. Personally, I think you're going to find it hard not to find icing is qualified "known" in that area anytime you fly IFR in the clouds during the colder months.

[hypertech]

It is not legal to fly into conditions of forecast icing with an inadvertent system.  My experience has been I find ice 10% of the time its forecast and 90% of my encounters were not forecast.  In that respect, having a FIKI system can improve your dispatch rate even if you plan to turn around and park if you hit trace amounts.

[StevenL757]

15 hours ago, Falcon Man said:

Hello fellow Mooniacs - I just started a new business venture in Seattle, WA and am concerned about the frequent icing conditions. My questions are:

1) As I would not fly in known icing conditions, is there much difference between a FIKI equipped Bravo vs. one with inadvertent icing equipment?

2) Is there anyone who has frequent experience flying out of Everett, WA, east out over the Cascades? I live in central Idaho and my weekly round trip would be from KSUN - KPAE.

I grew up in the Seattle/Tacoma area, and have flown a few different types across the mountains into E. Washington and Idaho (KELN, KCOE and St. Maries ID, among others).  If you’re planning to make that round-trip on a regular basis as you indicated, I personally wouldn’t consider doing it in a non-Fiki equipped airplane.  There’s no guarantee that a Fiki system will always do its job in all conditions.  Any number of severe-enough conditions can overwhelm such a system, so my personal choice is use it to get out of an icing encounter…not to plan, file, and sustain flight into such conditions…especially in the NW.

@Scott Dennstaedt, PhD will likely have some thoughts at a far-greater level of detail than I could offer.

[StevenL757]

8 hours ago, MikeOH said:

But, again, I'm a weather chicken!

Honestly, I think this translates to “good ADM”.

My company’s policies on weather limitations are documented very well in our OpSpecs, and are tighter than many other airlines, so I see “weather chickenry” as a good thing.

Steve

[Ragsf15e]

I fly between Spokane and Seattle often in a FIKI airplane.  Without FIKI, forget September through May.  I don’t cruise in icing, in the winter you’ll typically be able to get above it around 20,000’.  I usually cruise around 23,000’ but I’m pressurized.  Count on icing fall winter and spring.  Sometimes it’s there, sometimes not, but more often it is.  You could fly that route pretty often in the few summer months without FIKI but that’s about all in my opinion.  

 

[toto]

5 hours ago, hypertech said:

It is not legal to fly into conditions of forecast icing with an inadvertent system.

There are lots of different threads on MS about what constitutes “known icing,” and this is really a wholly separate topic, but I’ll just mention that “forecast” = “known” is controversial

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2009/Bell-AOPA_2009_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Any number of severe-enough conditions can overwhelm such a system, so my personal choice is use it to get out of an icing encounter…not to plan, file, and sustain flight into such conditions…especially in the NW.

I agree.  FIKI or inadvertent, my personal plan is "up, down, or turn around".  The ice equipment just provides more time to work my plan.

[thinwing]

well as others have stated..the cascades are icing producers.Every icing encounter ive been involved with has been on initial climbout out of seattle .This has occurred after actual pacific frontal passage with just the remaing scud enough to produce moderate icing in cloud.My system  is FIKI ,but with that being said ,I dont go unless I have actual route of flight pireps about layers and alitudes.At high teen to flight levels ,you are typically out of the moderate icing as the air at that alitude just cant contain that much water.The problem is 6 gal of TKS at max rate is good for only 90 minutes.TKS does work ,but should only  be used to reduce a panic situation to "high alert".Your passengers will not be amused by all the drama of an actual moderate to heavy icing event...Once is usually enough ,even with FIKI install in the single engine recips we fly.Doing so oct to apr is just not wise on the route described by poster on any kind of frequent basis.For that ,turbine equipment is the requirement.

[hypertech]

4 hours ago, toto said:

There are lots of different threads on MS about what constitutes “known icing,” and this is really a wholly separate topic, but I’ll just mention that “forecast” = “known” is controversial

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2009/Bell-AOPA_2009_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.527

[hais]

One thing to consider for a regular flight in this region is that you will likely have no backup plan.

1. Often icing covers a large area. If you plan to be above, then you need to fly for hours to be able to get down without passing through icing condition. 

2. MEAs are above fleezing levels.

3. A good portion of enroute airports will be LIFR. And you will need to descend through icing to reach them.

4. Often you will need to be above 20K to stay out of icing layers

[toto]

21 minutes ago, hypertech said:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.527

As the FAA legal interpretation mentions, this is in subpart F. 

I really only wanted to point out that "forecast" = "known" is controversial.

[Jerry 5TJ]

The profile view of icing on ForeFlight Pro is a good planing tool.  If the proposed flight’s profile in a FIKI GA airplane passes through any areas of forecast icing greater than light I reconsider.   If it doesn’t appear I will be able to climb above all icing areas I generally don’t go.  
 

[carusoam]

Sooo…. Back to the question…

Fiki vs. non-Fiki….

1) The TKS system is good for buying time to execute Plan B when you find yourself in icing conditions….

2) The Fiki system has a couple of back-up devices to ensure the system works as planned…

3) You live in an ice box… your need for the system is twice as common as the non-ice box residents….

4) If you use your anti-ice device often enough… expect to have a maintenance issue with it, in flight…

5) This is where that spare pump and spare container and spare whatever else comes with that… suddenly makes sense….

6) The non-Fiki system is great for not flying in potential icing conditions very often…

7) remember… the system gets turned on and used before the icing is encountered… in the icebox… that goes on for months at a time…

 

PP logic only, I don’t have a TKS system…

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

A correctly used no-FIKI system could well leave me safer than a legally used FIKI system.  With my no-fiki system I avoid ice.  I go several years in a row without seeing any ice.  But living where I live, there have been occasions I have screwed up and there was ice anyway, even though it was not supposed to be there.  Not forecast.  But with the no-fiki system I have something to do while I am also getting myself out of there.  It lowers the blood pressure a lot in a moment like that, but also all those other occasions when I have correctly interpreted and found no ice, but I know at least I have one more tool in my bag of backup plans.  A FIKI system therefore would be even better if I flew this same way since you get a backup pump, but would I more likely fly in forecast ice and so fly in ice more often?  Maybe yes.  

[ilovecornfields]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

A correctly used no-FIKI system could well leave me safer than a legally used FIKI system.  With my no-fiki system I avoid ice.  I go several years in a row without seeing any ice.  But living where I live, there have been occasions I have screwed up and there was ice anyway, even though it was not supposed to be there.  Not forecast.  But with the no-fiki system I have something to do while I am also getting myself out of there.  It lowers the blood pressure a lot in a moment like that, but also all those other occasions when I have correctly interpreted and found no ice, but I know at least I have one more tool in my bag of backup plans.  A FIKI system therefore would be even better if I flew this same way since you get a backup pump, but would I more likely fly in forecast ice and so fly in ice more often?  Maybe yes.  

I have a FIKI system and fly it the same way you fly yours. I also didn’t start driving more aggressively when I got my first car with airbags and ABS brakes. Not everyone behaves that way, though. 

[kortopates]

17 hours ago, hypertech said:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.527

91.527 is not applicable to us, its only applicable to Large & Turbine Powered Multiengine Airplanes & Fractional Ownership Aircraft. Not saying it doesn't provide some great advise; just overly restrictive. What is applicable for us is the the FAA Legal Interpretation for Bell that @toto provided above that very clearly states that "forecasted icing does not constitute know icing".

Some brief excerpts from the Bell interpretation on "Known Icing":

Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM). 7-1-22 - defines "known or observed or detected ice accretion" as "[a]ctual ice observed visually to be on the aircraft by the flight crew or identified by on-board sensors." Actual adhesion to the aircraft, rather than the existence of potential icing conditions, is the determinative factor in this definition.
...

The FAA does not necessarily consider the mere presence of clouds (which may only contain ice crystals) or other forms of visible moisture at temperatures at or below freezing to be conducive to the formation of known ice or to constitute known icing conditions. 
"Known icing conditions" involve instead circumstances where a reasonable pilot would expect a substantial likelihood of ice formation on the aircraft based upon all information available to that pilot.
The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has held on a number of occasions that known icing conditions exist when a pilot knows or reasonably should know about weather reports in which icing conditions are reported or forecast. In those cases the pilots chose to continue their flights without implementing an icing exit strategy or an alternative course of action and the aircraft experienced heavy ice formation that validated the forecasted danger to the aircraft.

[Ragsf15e]

On 9/6/2022 at 1:46 PM, Falcon Man said:

Hello fellow Mooniacs - I just started a new business venture in Seattle, WA and am concerned about the frequent icing conditions. My questions are:

1) As I would not fly in known icing conditions, is there much difference between a FIKI equipped Bravo vs. one with inadvertent icing equipment?

2) Is there anyone who has frequent experience flying out of Everett, WA, east out over the Cascades? I live in central Idaho and my weekly round trip would be from KSUN - KPAE.

Thanks,

Jeff

In my opinion, here’s the bottom line on your question… a turbo & FIKI Mooney will greatly increase your dispatch rate over the Cascades between September and May, but expect to fly very high (low 20’s) and expect to cancel for weather much more often than the airlines.  If you’re flexible enough, then I would definitely opt for the FIKI as you will be unlikely to cross the cascades often in winter without it.

[Falcon Man]

THANKS EVERYONE for the sage advice. Much to think about. My plans are to look for a FIKI equipped Bravo and plan on making a lot of commercial flights!

Jeff