Dual mag failure, off-field landing

[Will.iam]

Excellent job on finding a field and landing safely. This is the second time from 2 different groups i have heard the invaluable lessons / skills learned from gliding and how they can really help you in a stressful silent flight to touchdown. So much so i looked up glider schools and there is one south of dallas that you can fly into and take lessons even get a glider add-on endorsement. Will be scheduling that sometime later this next month when it’s starts to get a little cooler. This is also why i got a surefly on one side and mag on the other so i would have different redundancy as high altitude flying if there is something wrong with my pressurized mag i still have the surefly that does not need pressure at high altitudes and if there is some problem with the surefly, then i have old reliable mag to keep me going like a complete electrical failure including the battery. 

[T. Peterson]

6 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Nice. A couple comments from my engine out experience...

1) Once the FAA determined my engine failure was due to a Lycoming defect they lost all interest. They were only interested in missed inspection, maintenance.

2) They never asked me for my logbook. They pointed out that with Wings they already have our BFR on file.

 

 

-Robert

To paraphrase a great former President: Scariest sentence in the English language is, “We are from the government and we’re here to help.”

[skykrawler]

I think there is a 100 hour inspection interval on the D3000 - mainly for the points and lubricant.  The lube is very expensive and I wonder if it really has 'special qualities.'

The capacitors often are not returned during a inspection because the harness must be removed and sent as well.

[Gary0747]

14 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’d still take a well maintained D3000 over the newer options.  We had two Surefly failures on a Cirrus this year, so I remain doubtful.

Can you share any info on the Surefly failures?  I have had one for a couple of years and it has been solid.

[alexz]

21 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I’d still take a well maintained D3000 over the newer options.  We had two Surefly failures on a Cirrus this year, so I remain doubtful.

Yeah, would be curious to know about those failures as well

[carusoam]

Nice work Skyland!

+1 for pulling prop all the way back…

If you push the prop all the way forwards, you can feel the braking it supplies…. So, pulling the prop all the way out is a bit better…

Great CRM, and decision making!

Great write up, thanks for sharing it.

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Skyland]

I’ve thought about that so many times after the fact. It was so close. Another half mile after that 20 mile glide would have made the airport. I’ll experiment with the prop settings at altitude in a glide to see how evident it is. Make sense though, like downshifting a car descending a steep grade. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

Can you share any info on the Surefly failures?  I have had one for a couple of years and it has been solid.

The first was failed when it was set to variable timing.  We disconnected the MAP line and set it to fixed timing.  A replacement was ordered and installed, it stopped working a few flights later.  Both were sent back to Surefly and the money refunded, we reinstalled the original magneto after a 500 hour check.  

I didn’t ask Surefly for a follow up so I can’t answer what went wrong inside them.
 

 

[EricJ]

36 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

The first was failed when it was set to variable timing.  We disconnected the MAP line and set it to fixed timing.  A replacement was ordered and installed, it stopped working a few flights later.  Both were sent back to Surefly and the money refunded, we reinstalled the original magneto after a 500 hour check.  

I didn’t ask Surefly for a follow up so I can’t answer what went wrong inside them.

The number of airplanes that have solved Surefly problems by re-installing a magneto seems to keep increasing.

While mags do fail, they don't fail very often.   Skyland's failure seems to be particularly unlikely, but stuff does happen.

I'm happy to fly behind a D-3000, and much prefer it to any of the electronic substitutes.   There's not really anything in a D-3000 that isn't in a typical Bendix magneto.    The main difference is there's only one magnet and a single drive and mounting point.    The single mounting point makes installation errors potentially more problematic than on separate mags, but occassional inspection goes a long way toward mitigating that.

[Will.iam]

My surefly is fixed timing as i have a turbo but it has been solid since we installed it almost a year ago now. Mine is version 2 which didn’t require the capacitor for 28volt system. 

[Ragsf15e]

15 hours ago, Will.iam said:

My surefly is fixed timing as i have a turbo but it has been solid since we installed it almost a year ago now. Mine is version 2 which didn’t require the capacitor for 28volt system. 

Mine has been good too. Gen 1, advance timing, 14v.  Time will tell.

[Gary0747]

Surefly problems and solutions have been discussed quite a bit on Beechtalk.  It appears most all the problems have been either bad ignition harnesses or 24 volt systems with transient voltage spikes that cause the Surefly to malfunction as it resets.  The latest generation has a filter circuit and I think a filter is available for the first generation units.  This appears to solve the 24volt issue for some.  

[jliltd]

Here is another reveal of how horrible QAA is.  I would rather send an aircraft accessory to the local playground and let the kids knock it around with a bat than send anything to QAA.

[carusoam]

Pretty crummy pireps for QAA…

Interesting first post jliltd…

Best regards,

-a-

[KSMooniac]

They returned a D2000 mag to the previous owner of my plane after he paid for a D3000. How is that for quality? I discovered it after sending it to a good shop for a 500 HR inspection. They resisted at first/couldn't believe it until we sent a pic of the inside of the mag and their overhaul sticker still intact on the side.

Sent from my LM-V450 using Tapatalk

[McMooney]

On 8/18/2022 at 11:13 AM, Ragsf15e said:

Mine has been good too. Gen 1, advance timing, 14v.  Time will tell.

mine  is set for timing advance, going on 300hrs now, no issues.

[Brent]

On 8/15/2022 at 2:41 PM, Skyland said:

I’m well overdue explaining my off-field landing incident on May 9 of this year, as a result of the D- 3000 dual mag failure. Caution – long write-up but hopefully there are some takeaway points of value here.

My wife and I departed from our home base in California for the Chicago area in our M20J as we’ve done many times before. Day 2 we took off from Page, AZ - direct Albuquerque - direct Salina, KS. Enroute at 11.5K nearing Albuquerque we began to hear what sounded like a very faint rattle emanating from the belly area. Listened for a bit and it started to get more frequent. Began troubleshooting to see if it might be engine related. Changed prop, mixture, throttle, pump, tanks with no affect. Best I recall all items on the engine monitor appeared normal. No change until switching to Left mag – nearly dead. Right mag was better but rough. Immediately turned to nearest airport. Declared an emergency with ABQ approach and informed the controller of my situation. Unfortunately, Double Eagle was a couple miles beyond the FF glide ring. Within the next couple minutes the left mag completely failed and had only partial power on the right, but that also failed in the next few minutes. Now it was truly an “oh darn” moment, or words to that effect. How both mags checked good during preflight and both were now failing was not a good feeling. All I knew was I needed to make the best of a bad situation. I tried to reassure my wife that the plane flies perfectly fine as a glider now, we have about ten minutes to reach the airport or find a good place to land and we’ll be alright.

We gained some ground on the glide ring as we continued but were battling some 40kt headwinds. Kept the aircraft clean and the glide speed faster than normal in an attempt to minimize time in those strong winds. Glider pilots minimize their time spent in sinking air by flying faster for the same reason. I kept Approach informed of our progress, that I had no power, that I thought it was a dual mag failure and that I might not be able to make the airport. Then came the standard issue question - say number of souls on board and fuel remaining. My wife remained remarkably calm throughout and even helped by scanning around for possible landing locations and obstructions. The fact that I am a fairly experienced glider pilot did help immensely in my opinion. During the entire power-off descent and landing it all seemed rather normal to me because every landing in a glider is an engine out landing. Airports are nice but fields work too. Approach handed me off and Tower had already cleared out traffic for the inbound emergency and cleared us for any runway but winds were strongly favoring 22. It is so gratifying and special to know the ATC professionals will do everything in their power to assist an aircraft in distress. Despite making up some glide distance, it was looking very iffy that we would be able to make the runway. Several miles out we identified what looked like a good open space short of the airport boundary clear of power lines and obstructions. It was our go to place if needed. At about 1000AGL those hangers, roads and fences on final approach looked like something we might not clear. Without hesitation I told the tower unable to make the runway and we're going for the field. The last thing I wanted to do was to try for the airport at all cost only to stretch the glide with disastrous results. As much as I love my Mooney the thought went through my mind to use the plane to save us. I rolled out parallel to the active into the strong headwind, lowered the gear and flaps and did a nice smooth full stall landing on the sandy desert floor. We looked at each other, did a quick embrace and said somewhat jokingly, well that wasn’t a bad landing. We ended up about 100 yards from the airport fence. Tower controller was watching the entire event and offered a big compliment. I let them know that the airplane appeared undamaged and no
injuries.

Emergency personnel soon began to arrive, followed by airport and FBO staff as well as the FAA. The largest fire in NM history was in progress and the last thing anyone wanted was an airplane crash to spark another blaze in the windy desert scrub. Everyone, and especially me, was relieved that the Mooney was sitting there unscathed. No damage to the prop or even the gear doors, not a scratch that I could see. Full stall landing into a strong wind on the semi-soft surface made for a very short landing. FAA measured the roll out at 322 feet.

The two gentlemen from the FAA were extremely nice but also professional. In fact one of them owns an F model so we bonded a bit. They did check the airplane for fuel and oil just to make sure I didn't do something really stupid. They took pictures of the plane as well as my documents and the airplane documents to verify everyone and everything was legal and current. Basically a ramp check in the desert. They also requested I send them scans of the latest annual logbook entries when I returned home.

After everyone was satisfied we were fine and all the paperwork was done, one of the maintenance guys offered to help with his small Jeep and a tow bar. It was an easy pull to perimeter road and onto the ramp.

Given the situation I’m extremely grateful for the outcome. Day VFR at cruise over a desert having just flown over rugged terrain. Luck played a big part but I’ll take it.

Those sounds at the beginning of the event were likely afterfires in the muffler due to incomplete combustion in the cylinders. One would think EGT would be spiking but the JPI 830 didn’t show that and the engine data doesn’t reflect anything out of the ordinary either from what I tell.

So what happened? The next morning I met an IA at the plane. We pulled the infamous D-3000 dual mag and right away observed that neither set of points was opening. That's on a recently overhauled mag with 209 hours on it replaced two years prior. Something caused both rubbing blocks to wear down prematurely – and remarkably simultaneously. I’m going with lack of lube because it appeared the oil pads on the points were dry with some fibers scattered about inside the distributor cap. But both sets, and simultaneously? Other commonalities to the failure could be bad surface finish on the common cam, contaminated lube, defective rubbing block material. So, bad parts or a bad rebuild?

The FAA says they are looking into it but who knows how long that will take or if anything will come of it. Maybe if more failures occur it will become a higher priority. In the meantime the mag was field repaired (points adjusted and oil wicks lubed, engine timing set) and I flew it back to my home base. It just came out of annual with an emphasis on looking for any possible damage due to the off-field landing. As mentioned, not a scratch or any problems found. I subsequently made that Chicago trip, without my wife this time, and the plane performed perfectly. I plan to have the point gaps checked every 50 hours to see if there is any trend or cause for concern.

Lessons learned.

When something doesn’t feel or sound right it might be worse than thought. Wasted a few precious minutes troubleshooting before turning to the airport.
Pulling back the prop might have improved the glide. Never trained for it, only read about it and being task saturated at the time didn’t think of it.

Forty plus years and thousands of hours, mostly in Mooneys, without an engine failure doesn’t mean it can’t happen.
I fly a Mooney for safety and its good looks, but also for its efficiency which means I frequently fly direct. Been rather cavalier about flying over inhospitable terrain. My glider buddies call that Tiger country.
Glider experience helped. Kept things somewhat routine.
Stay current and legal. You never know when a ramp check can occur.
Practice various emergencies. Commit important procedures to memory. Single pilot ops too task saturated or no time to look it up.
Squawk 7700 in an emergency. Didn’t think of it and wasn’t my highest priority. Hopefully missed my one and only opportunity. ATC already had me as an emergency.

Add more items to the survival kit. Could have been far from help or injured.
Love Mooneys but hate dual mags. I don’t want this incident to significantly change my flying. Unfortunately, it’s changed my wife’s flying. It was a rare event and the odds of it happening again are highly unlikely. However, the reason for this failure is largely unknown. I’m still flying with the same mag but checking Left and Right in flight now and especially before entering IFR conditions, nighttime or Tiger country.

Fly safe.

Thanks for the write-up and the lessons learned. Good reminder on the documents and logbook currency. Nice to see the plane on hard dirt amidst the brush unscathed.

Hope your co-pilot has a change of heart at some point, but it's understandable. 

[0TreeLemur]

Great job!

Your first photo looks like it could be a scene from "Breaking Bad".

 

[Canadian Gal]

Great landing!

How have the mags been since then?

[Skyland]

After the dual mag failure the points were inspected in the field, gaps reset, lubed and timing set.  I had the mags pulled after 50 hours to check the point gaps.  No appreciable gap change, which was good peace of mind before setting off on a coast to coast flight.  About 100 hours on the mag now since the failure eight months ago.  In addition to the L and R mag check on preflight I now check them in flight before entering IFR conditions, night or hostile terrain.  I'll have the mag pulled at each annual to check if there is any trend to the gaps changing.

[Canadian Gal]

44 minutes ago, Skyland said:

After the dual mag failure the points were inspected in the field, gaps reset, lubed and timing set.  I had the mags pulled after 50 hours to check the point gaps.  No appreciable gap change, which was good peace of mind before setting off on a coast to coast flight.  About 100 hours on the mag now since the failure eight months ago.  In addition to the L and R mag check on preflight I now check them in flight before entering IFR conditions, night or hostile terrain.  I'll have the mag pulled at each annual to check if there is any trend to the gaps changing.

 

That's good news.

[BaldEagle]

Resurrecting this thread.  We just pulled a D3000 dual mag this afternoon (M20J) as I was getting 200 rpm drop on the right and there was 350 hours on it since the last overhaul.  There was no torque on the top nut, I could have loosened it with my fingers, and the lower nut was just barely pinch tight.  An incorrect gasket had also been installed by whoever pulled it the last time for overhaul so clearly 1508C Service Instruction had not been performed.  Additionally FAA SAIB NE-08-26R3 says to check the nuts with a torque wrench at each annual / 100 hour and also to check the magneto for looseness at each oil change and / or 50 hours.  I have no idea how you're supposed to torque the lower nut as it's very difficult to get to but I'll let my A&P worry about that.  In any case, sharing because my guess is that this isn't being performed by many shops at annual and for those of us that do our own oil change we should religiously be checking the mag each time.

[N201MKTurbo]

I use my 1/2 torque wrench with a 1/2 to 3/8 adapter then a 3/8 to 1/4 adapter a 2 inch extension and a 1/2 inch socket. It slides right in there with mm to spare.

You have to do it with the cap off. No room with it on.

[N201MKTurbo]

Putting the cap on is a huge PITA. Getting the bottom P lead on the points is almost impossible with my big hands. Luckily, Dave has a stable of little kids with amazing mechanical skills. “hay, kid, get over here. Put that wire on that little thingy” easy peasy.

[EricJ]

I just got mine back from the overhauler today.    I put it in with the cap on and torqued the bottom nut using an oddball combination of adapters and short extensions to get the length just right, but if you do that, it works fine.   To install it with the cap on the harness must be loose and just bring it in at an angle.   You need something, a couple dabs of RTV or something, to keep the gasket attached to the mag or that'll be the hardest part of the job.    It helps a lot to not have a vacuum pump, too. 

Both times I've installed it with the cap on I was also installing a new harness, so the harness was loose, which makes it a lot easier.    I've had it in and out by taking the cap off, too, which is harder to do, but you don't have to disconnect the harness from everything.