Another Example of EV BS

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

Build quality, long term reliability, performance, and size?  We’ll it looks like an updated Geo Metro but I’ll compare it directly to a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. 
 

What’s the average cost per mile these days, national average including depreciation, insurance, taxes, registration, maintenance, etc…. Guessing it’s over $0.50 a mile. Please explain how your Tesla is going to be sooo much cheaper than buying a Prius at half the cost as you save $0.05 per mile. You honestly remind me of friends and family that keep telling me I’m saving so much money flying my Mooney vs Southwest. 

If I was a road warrior doing multiple <600nm trips a week, there are scenarios where my Mooney would be less expensive than flying commercial.

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, exM20K said:

276 million cars in the US.  If batteries are discarded every 10 years, how and where will 27.6 million batteries  be disposed of safely every year?

Dan, JB Straubel one of the cofounders of Tesla, has the answer. 99% of battery material that needs to be mined can be reclaimed, again and again. 

https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/press/redwood-materials-creates-the-first-pathways-for-end-of-life-electric-vehicles-kicks-off-in-california

 

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

If I was a road warrior doing multiple <600nm trips a week, there are scenarios where my Mooney would be less expensive than flying commercial.

I think there are many cases where the above would be true and the EV car would be cheaper.  However, you really need a passion for flying or desire to drive an EV to make it worth it.  Saying one particular model of a car is the end all perfect choice is just justifying your reasoning to the world…who really don’t care.

5 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Dan, JB Straubel one of the cofounders of Tesla, has the answer. 99% of battery material that needs to be mined can be reclaimed, again and again. 

My guess is they’ll ship off a lot of (50% life) batteries to poor countries who will utilize the remaining capacity. The real question is will they ship them back at great expense to be recycled or just toss them in the landfill over there. I hauled in my old $600 aircraft battery to the recycler a couple weeks ago. Came out with just enough to cover my gas to drive there…now if I was driving an EV…;)

[Will.iam]

3 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Build quality, long term reliability, performance, and size?  We’ll it looks like an updated Geo Metro but I’ll compare it directly to a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. 
 

What’s the average cost per mile these days, national average including depreciation, insurance, taxes, registration, maintenance, etc…. Guessing it’s over $0.50 a mile. Please explain how your Tesla is going to be sooo much cheaper than buying a Prius at half the cost as you save $0.05 per mile. You honestly remind me of friends and family that keep telling me I’m saving so much money flying my Mooney vs Southwest. 

Flying solo is harder to justify the airline price difference. It’s when you take the family that flying the mooney becomes cheaper than flying commercially especially when it’s a holiday weekend or last min travel plans you save alot!

[T. Peterson]

6 hours ago, 201er said:

These things seem like a good idea on paper.

 

But, sometimes it's better to wait till they work out all the kinks.

 

 

 

I don’t have a dog in this fight. I hope all forms of transportation get better and cheaper whether powered by gas, electricity or bear poop, but this post is hilarious!

I will add that even though these pictures reflect the colossal failure of some ideas, they did contribute to the advancement of aviation if only to demonstrate what doesn’t work. Thomas Edison did not hit a homer his first time at bat.

At any rate, I very much enjoy all of your posts. You are a bunch of smart fellas on both sides of an issue. Just strive to be very cordial when you disagree!

Torrey

[Andy95W]

I think this means that Torrey is trying to figure out how to run his 231 with bear poop…

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Build quality, long term reliability, performance, and size?  We’ll it looks like an updated Geo Metro but I’ll compare it directly to a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord. 
 

What’s the average cost per mile these days, national average including depreciation, insurance, taxes, registration, maintenance, etc…. Guessing it’s over $0.50 a mile. Please explain how your Tesla is going to be sooo much cheaper than buying a Prius at half the cost as you save $0.05 per mile. You honestly remind me of friends and family that keep telling me I’m saving so much money flying my Mooney vs Southwest. 

Some people just won’t believe the earth is round and won’t be convinced.

Our last car was a Prius, we put 279,000 miles on it in 12 years with its original battery despite all the experts saying we would be replacing it every other year, it was a fine car, but you can’t compare a Prius to a Model 3 for size , performance, comfort or safety, by saying you think it’s a geo metro just displays your ignorance and strange hate.

It’s the strange hatred for hybrids and EV’s that I don’t understand.

The cost to drive the Model 3 is 1/5 the cost to drive the average US vehicle and 1/2 the cost to drive a Prius. I know because I’ve had all three and being a CB I’ve kept track

Yes Car and Driver car blew a fuse, not a motor and of course it was covered under warranty, as far as battery degradation they don’t have any idea, they only know what the car reports, and if your concerned about a 6% loss, reset the BMS and see if you don’t get it back.

There is data all over the internet about Tesla battery capacity loss if you’d care to look. 

The cheapest car to drive would I’m sure be a $500 beater that you only put min required insurence on and throw it away every year or two when it died, don’t do any maintenance, just get another beater

But you would be driving a piece of junk, so it’s not about the cheapest car to drive, it’s about being the least expensive nice, safe car to drive, to say nothing about the technology, the ability to leave the dog in the car while you shopping because the AC stays on, the camera security system, ability to watch Netflix and sit in AC comfort while the Wife shops, the fact that they are exceedingly difficult to steal, the fact that it is safer than any other vehicle at least in its size class, the fact of all vehicles you can buy it’s the most American made vehicle there is, the list goes on an on.

Finally the car mag guys all hate Tesla, and it’s easy to figure out why, because Tesla doesn’t pay a cent for advertising, as opposed to BMW which buys several full page ads every month, they know which side their toast is buttered, day after Tesla buys bunches of advertising, the car mags will love them.

Years ago BMW “bought” the car mags, they were smart to do so, their target sales are the ones who read those mags.

I first noticed that when we bought our CTS-V, the car mag (either Car and Driver or Road and Track) ran a test between the V and a BMW M5, the last paragraph said the V was faster around the track, had a shorter braking distance, higher G on the skid pad, faster top end, and quicker quarter mile, but something about it just didn’t feel right, the BMW felt right, so the BMW was the better car. What tipped me off was immediately following the article was several full page BWW ads. Total Caddy ads? zero.

Average cost per mile to drive? Who knows IRS says 58c per mile now, up 2c per mile from a year ago when gas was cheap, so how valid is that number?

However cost per mile to fuel a vehicle is pretty easy to determine, all you need is rate of consumption and price per unit consumed.

Insurence cost from a Tesla is slightly cheaper than to insure the BMW or the Audi from USAA. I checked because many naysayers are saying insurence cost it way higher due to cost to repair.

Maintenance cost? There isn’t any really as there is essentially no scheduled maintenance, but as I do all my own I don’t worry too much about maintenance costs, originally Tesla had you flushing brake fluid every other year etc, but now they just have you test for moisture content with a test strip, they also had you changing powertrain oil and have now dropped that. I think I will change the oil.

Car weight is nearly identical to the Audi or BMW so tire wear ought to be a wash, brakes due to regen will last much longer.

So we have covered tires, maintenance, insurence, fuel cost, what else is there?

What about depreciation? Average car coming off a three year lease has lost 52% of it value, Model 3 10%

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33935142/tesla-model-3-depreciate-electric-car/

Edited May 3, 2022 by A64Pilot

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

8 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I don’t understand and never have why so many are against new technology?

I am not against new technology.  I object to:

1.  Over-hyped ejaculations and outright lies that the EV crowd continuously put forth.

2.  Government subsides of favored companies and technologies.  https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/02/climate/biden-electric-car-batteries.html  https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Stellantis-pours-billions-more-into-Canada-17142190.php

3.  Government interference in manufacturing according to political agendas.

4.  The above items lead to more investment in companies that will never payoff and less investment in better technology that is not in the favored class.

5.  Special treatment in regulations for favored companies/industries.

These all lead to less innovation in the long run and poorer economic results for us all.

[N201MKTurbo]

Let's go off on a tangent....  Like that has never happened.

If the government want's to subsidize a technology, I suggest home energy storage. I read about these people who put up solar, but they depend on the electric company to store their excess production during the day and supply them power at night. Most household solar producers are being subsidized by the government and/or the power company.  I think if you are going to go solar, go all the way.  I've heard people say the power companies are ripping them off with their solar installations because they are charged for power when they are not using any. All I have to say to them is to cancel their electricity connection. But they can't. 

[A64Pilot]

Time and Time again I’ve stated that the Gubermint needs to stay the hell out of it completely, did they subsidize gas stations? Then why should the subsidize car charging? If they stay out of it, whatever is superior will become predominant

I got zero tax infinitives for our Tesla and took no tax rebate for the charger etc.

My reason is I believe if it’s left up to free enterprise, they will get it right, there is money, real money to be made on car charging and people who will build them to make a profit will put them in the correct place etc. Government? Likely every Congressperson will get them in their areas but not where they are needed.

I’m convinced if the Government gets involved, they will F it up like they did NASA. 

I’m in complete agreement, but that’s a Government problem. not an EV problem. 

I know how I vote, it’s not for the types that believe in big government, and if one starts saying how we need to subsidize anything, they lose my vote, because I firmly believe if you want to screw something up, get the Government involved.

Solar as an example, I lived on mostly Solar power for years on our boat, I can tell you from experience it’s at least ten times as expensive as grid power with batteries and inverters, super efficient refrigeration etc. and we really couldn’t do it 100% we still had to have generators, get three rainy days in a row and your batteries are dead, two really unless you turn everything off and sit in the dark

What Solar does on houses is make grid power more expensive for those without it, eventually maybe if there is enough of it, it will drive grid power high enough to where Solar makes sense money wise 

Edited May 3, 2022 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

27 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I am not against new technology.  I object to:

1.  Over-hyped ejaculations and outright lies that the EV crowd continuously put forth.

2.  Government subsides of favored companies and technologies.  https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/02/climate/biden-electric-car-batteries.html  https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Stellantis-pours-billions-more-into-Canada-17142190.php

3.  Government interference in manufacturing according to political agendas.

4.  The above items lead to more investment in companies that will never payoff and less investment in better technology that is not in the favored class.

5.  Special treatment in regulations for favored companies/industries.

These all lead to less innovation in the long run and poorer economic results for us all.

Both of those articles you linked to require a subscription, do you subscribe to them?

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

14 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Both of those articles you linked to require a subscription, do you subscribe to them?

No.  The link was included with a synopsis in a daily email I receive.  https://mailview.bulletinmedia.com/mailview.aspx

[McMooney]

Already have my electric silverado reserved, can't wait to Roll IONS

[A64Pilot]

37 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

No.  The link was included with a synopsis in a daily email I receive.  https://mailview.bulletinmedia.com/mailview.aspx

I didn’t think those were the type you would pay to read, that link doesn’t work either, but that’s OK, I’m pretty sure I know what they say, likely current President wants to give a couple of favored companies Billions or maybe Trillions of dollars that don’t exist?

Edited May 3, 2022 by A64Pilot

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

It’s the strange hatred for hybrids and EV’s that I don’t understand.

I actually really like hybrids!  Very excited about the Maverick and I also would be thrilled with a hybrid (lots of models) from Toyota and Honda. I’ve also owned the Tesla stock for a long time, back before anyone thought the stock would take off.  The Model S is the only one I like the look of but that’s a personal choice. 

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

The cost to drive the Model 3 is 1/5 the cost to drive the average US vehicle and 1/2 the cost to drive a Prius. I know because I’ve had all three and being a CB I’ve kept track

C&D did a two year test and showed exactly what they paid per mile. It was exactly what it costs fuel wise for a Prius (at current $3.85). The hybrid midsize sedans get roughly the same mileage.  I still can’t see how the 3 is half the cost when the fuel costs the same and the purchase price is much less. 

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Yes Car and Driver car blew a fuse, not a motor and of course it was covered under warranty, as far as battery degradation they don’t have any idea, they only know what the car reports, and if your concerned about a 6% loss, reset the BMS and see if you don’t get it back.

So the Tesla service department just changed the fuse on that car?  Can you buy them at Napa and install them yourself?

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

What about depreciation? Average car coming off a three year lease has lost 52% of it value, Model 3 10%

Show me where I can start a 3 year lease for a total of 10% of the car value. I’ll sign up tonight. I’m pretty sure tesla just made a policy you can’t buy out your lease.  What are current lease terms?

[MIm20c]

Just for fun I looked at leasing. This is for 3 years and 30k miles. It would cost me $26k for those 30k miles with no buyout option. That equals $0.87 per mile. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by MIm20c

[T. Peterson]

4 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I think this means that Torrey is trying to figure out how to run his 231 with bear poop…

Andy makes a funny!!

[A64Pilot]

 C&D and many others say a Model 3 at three years old depreciates 10%, that’s obviously due to demand. Go argue with them tell them they are wrong, those are their numbers not mine.

I don’t know anything about leases, my model is buy a car and drive it for over a decade, our other two cars are both 05 models

Prius gets 50 MPG at 3.85 a gl that’s 7.7c per mile for fuel. I actually used to get closer to 60 MPG, it’s easy to get its rated MPG

Our Model 3 average is 218 WH per mile at 14c per KWH is 3.c  per mile, to get that not being math smart I had to divide 1KW by 218 to determine 1KWH gets us 4.59 miles. 1KWH is 14c, so 14 div by 4.59 gets us 3.05 cents.

Check my math cause I’m not good at math, I make stupid mistakes 

As I said it’s not about what is the cheapest car to operate all costs included that’s a $500 junker. 

The point is after the car is bought as the average car in the US costs right at what a Model 3 sells for, what does it cost to drive back and forth to work everyday.

‘It’s the Wife’s car she drives about 80 miles a day 5 days a week so 400 miles a week times 3.05c per mile is $12.20? Check math please.

Average car gets 25.7 MPG https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1177-march-15-2021-preliminary-data-show-average-fuel-economy-new-light

So 400 div 25.7 is 15.57 gls of fuel x 3.85 is $59.92 dollars per week which is 4.9 times 12.20

 

Full disclosure I guess because she drives country roads she beats the Model 3 official consumption, it’s 240 WH per mile, so use 240 instead of 218 and it will drive out cost up slightly

I’ve run those numbers several ways because I keep thinking I’m screwing them up, remember my math skills are terrible, it can’t be that cheap to drive the thing, but unless I am screwing up the numbers, it is.

Edited May 4, 2022 by A64Pilot

[T. Peterson]

5 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Flying solo is harder to justify the airline price difference. It’s when you take the family that flying the mooney becomes cheaper than flying commercially especially when it’s a holiday weekend or last min travel plans you save alot!

It’s not even the money, though I am quite conscious of the expense. Going to a big airport to wade first through metropolitan traffic, then parking, then TSA and finally the boarding process is maddening! I told my wife I am never going to a big airport after I retire unless it is a family emergency. The blessing of being able to fly into a little mom and pop airport only minutes from my grandchildren is simply wonderful. 

[Will.iam]

2 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

It’s not even the money, though I am quite conscious of the expense. Going to a big airport to wade first through metropolitan traffic, then parking, then TSA and finally the boarding process is maddening! I told my wife I am never going to a big airport after I retire unless it is a family emergency. The blessing of being able to fly into a little mom and pop airport only minutes from my grandchildren is simply wonderful. 

We used to land on the road in front of my grandpa’s farm in Iowa and park the mooney in his corn field by the house. Talk about convenience and time saved. Now a days I would not be surprised if someone would call the FAA if you did that now. 

[hais]

Someone financially savvy should offer option contracts for electric airplane - we could all then kick ourselves N years from now for not adopting trading strategy X

[A64Pilot]

5 hours ago, hais said:

Someone financially savvy should offer option contracts for electric airplane - we could all then kick ourselves N years from now for not adopting trading strategy X

I’ll never have one myself for two reasons.

First I can’t afford a new airplane, my J would probably cost close to a mil new and that’s out of my range

Secondly even if I could by the time an EA with the speed, range and payload of my J becomes available if I’m still alive I’m sure I won’t be flying anymore.

I used to fly Commercial pretty frequently for work, I’ve never gotten into that pressurized tube since then, and it’s my intent to never do so I despise the whole experience that much CBP and TSA have to go out of their way to hire complete morons

[A64Pilot]

7 hours ago, Will.iam said:

We used to land on the road in front of my grandpa’s farm in Iowa and park the mooney in his corn field by the house. Talk about convenience and time saved. Now a days I would not be surprised if someone would call the FAA if you did that now. 

Somewhere in the Fl panhandle you would call the Marina/ restaurant and the would run out with a VW bus and block the road for you to land and taxi to the parking lot to eat, reverse for you to leave. 

Its still common in the NWT and Alaska. I remember landing on a gravel strip and walking across the AK highway to eat at a gas station and noticed 20’ hoses on the gas pumps for airplanes

[exM20K]

Somewhere in the Fl panhandle you would call the Marina/ restaurant and the would run out with a VW bus and block the road for you to land and taxi to the parking lot to eat, reverse for you to leave. 
Its still common in the NWT and Alaska. I remember landing on a gravel strip and walking across the AK highway to eat at a gas station and noticed 20’ hoses on the gas pumps for airplanes

Cedar Key. (KCDK). Supposed to be a really cool spot. Never been.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

Cedar Key. (KCDK). Supposed to be a really cool spot. Never been.

No Cedar Key is a paved runway and a Lady named Judy monitors the radio and provides cab service, she has a raggedy minivan now, used to be an old Checker cab held together with duct tape.

You can also rent golf carts and pay extra and they will deliver to the airport, or you can walk into town, maybe a mile or two and either rent a cart of just walk.

We used to take the bikes in the Maule back in the day, CDK is a tourist trap but so long as you understand that your fine. Just don’t expect old Florida, that only exists in the Panhandle now and in the interior of Florida.

If your after outstanding food fly into Panacea 2J0 and call Angelo’s and they will come get you, call first as I’ve not done it in years, Angelo’s is worth the effort, been on the water at the bridge since just after WWII, a Hurricane got it a few years ago but it was rebuilt surprisingly, I say surprisingly because there isn’t enough locals to support it, it’s mostly people driving from Tallahassee, which is a pretty good drive, so it has to be good to make that drive.

For just as good food, but OLD Florida atmosphere fly into Carrabelle  X13 That place is gone I guess as I can’t find it, was a Lady’s name, but I’m sure there are others. 

What makes those areas so good for Seafood is they are real close to Applachicola Bay, which is the best Seafood in Fl. most seafood you eat in Fl comes from this area depending on Species, but the fresh stuff is at the source, sort of like Buying Maine Lobster on the dock.

Now I’m hungry