Never get overly confident with your skills! ( Mooney Bravo m20m)

[pkofman]

Today in almost perfect no wind condition flying the Bravo I bounced my airplane after flying a very stable rnav approach. Not a huge bounce but enough for me to immediately  . "go around".. I probably set myself up for failure as the wind was all over the map ,and winds were shifting from tailwind to headwind. I was also very light ( so I was probably too fast ) and  , although I didn't think so over the numbers ( 80kts ) . Well something went wrong and I flared early and high , and then a bounce. I did not hang around . I just hit the power and called centre for a go around. Plane and pilot are good, no damage or carnage. My passenger however  gulped hard!!. She did not expect that!!  it was an ifr  flight requiring a go around.

My point here is that other than a bruised ego ,( ive flown this plane about 600 hours and have another  900  hrs in other  Mooneys), it is important to stick to the game and fly the numbers so that these birds sit down nicely. I was slow but probably not slow enough at my weight ).. When this sort of thing happens it shocks the system and you learn allot. So never get cocky and if instincts say go around  ( even if ifr on a vfr day ) do it.. I went full gas rather than try to save what felt like a very failed situation 

The plane is good , the ego is a bit bruised , (im the kids of person who will replay this in my mind for a while ) but I thought I would share  this because I suppose I am not the only one who has experienced something like this and honestly I sort of shocked me how quickly these sorts of things can get us into trouble

Maybe this might help others, if not , then it just feels good sharing my experience. 

Pete

 

 

Edited April 23, 2022 by pkofman
spelling

[midlifeflyer]

Anytime we become overconfident in an airplane, we can be sure the airplane will give us a lesson in humility. 

[carusoam]

Great pirep for a go around in a Bravo PK!

The last pirep for a go around in a Bravo didn’t end nearly as well!

Best regards,

-a-

[IFLYIFR]

The “Why We Can’t Land” article by Wayne Fisher recommends 1.2 x Vso speed over the runway threshold. I don’t know what the weight adjusted Vso is for your Bravo, but the mid weight over the threshold full flaps speed in an M20J is 62 knots (65 kts at max weight). 80 kts is of course very doable but it requires patience and maybe a longer runway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andy95W]

Thanks for sharing about your flight.  It’s not always easy discussing just so that others can learn from your experience.  I’m glad you did.

[Shadrach]

We’ve all been surprised by the unexpected in airplanes. 80kts is nearly 1.4xVso MGW. If you were light, probably closer to 1.5. That’s sub-optimal at best. Speed kills…

[TGreen]

4 hours ago, pkofman said:

 

( 80kts ) . Well something went wrong and I flared early and high , and then a bounce. 

 

Pete, would you say you bounced because you touched down going too fast and the plane wasn't done flying, or did you bleed off the speed too high above the ground and drop it in? Was it the speed or the high flare?

[pkofman]

6 hours ago, TGreen said:

Pete, would you say you bounced because you touched down going too fast and the plane wasn't done flying, or did you bleed off the speed too high above the ground and drop it in? Was it the speed or the high flare?

Good Morning,. in this case I think it was just a combo that started with a high flare and then not enough patience to let the plane settle, so too much vertical energy and hence the bounce, (  maybe an abrupt power change on my part that started the whole thing ) , my experience a good flare at the correct speed ++++patience will get the job done beautifully,. In this case the first bounce may have been able to been saved with a touch of added power but I did not like the sight picture so I hit the gas.    once I was in the missed they changed the runway  direction completely  ( winds were almost nil, but what was blowing was varying wildly) and now  we were all landing in the opposite direction. It was just a confluence of many things, but it was all wrong even though I thought I had it set up properly, Hence my comment ..... sometimes things just dont work out the way you might think!

[GeeBee]

One time I as a new Captain on an MD-88 I was on approach to LGA runway 4. Nice day, wind down the runway, I had the speed and path nailed. I thought, "I finally got this airplane nailed" it looked soooooo good. I flared and BLAM! I hit so hard I dissipated all the energy and made the turn off before RWY 13-31. I exclaimed to the F/O "What did I do!" He shrugged his shoulders and said, "It all looked good until the touch down, I don't know". So take heart, at least you did not do it in front of 142 people......until you confessed to us.

[LANCECASPER]

15 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

One time I as a new Captain on an MD-88 I was on approach to LGA runway 4. Nice day, wind down the runway, I had the speed and path nailed. I thought, "I finally got this airplane nailed" it looked soooooo good. I flared and BLAM! I hit so hard I dissipated all the energy and made the turn off before RWY 13-31. I exclaimed to the F/O "What did I do!" He shrugged his shoulders and said, "It all looked good until the touch down, I don't know". So take heart, at least you did not do it in front of 142 people......until you confessed to us.

It wouldn’t surprise me if the DC-9, MD-80, MD-88 is where “any landing your can walk away from is a good landing” came from. As a passenger the landings seemed “firm” at best and jolting most of the time.  If I was seated toward the back the take-offs seemed almost vertical.

[pkofman]

51 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

One time I as a new Captain on an MD-88 I was on approach to LGA runway 4. Nice day, wind down the runway, I had the speed and path nailed. I thought, "I finally got this airplane nailed" it looked soooooo good. I flared and BLAM! I hit so hard I dissipated all the energy and made the turn off before RWY 13-31. I exclaimed to the F/O "What did I do!" He shrugged his shoulders and said, "It all looked good until the touch down, I don't know". So take heart, at least you did not do it in front of 142 people......until you confessed to us.

Yes so true but..... , no better place for a confession and to learn lay it out in plain text so that I can learn from mistakes and get others experiences... 

 

[201er]

Angle of attack indicator is very helpful for avoiding this type of scenario. Instead of doing math and thinking in final to adjust for weight, you just center the indicator with pitch like you center the ball with rudder. Speed will vary each time but the AOA will be the same which is the true goal.

[Fly Boomer]

13 hours ago, pkofman said:

wind was all over the map ,and winds were shifting from tailwind to headwind

While 80 sounds fast with "normal" winds, in these conditions it sounds about right.

[donkaye]

You didn't ask, but from an instructor's point of view and with almost 30 years of Bravo ownership...

The Bravo has a short field no wind speed range depending on weight of between 75 knots and 65 knots.  The 65 knots applies with 1 person on board and 1 hour of fuel.  With 2 people and no headwind component the approach speed should have been no faster than 75 knots.  Without very gusty conditions 80 knots is waaaaay too fast.  The flare should start gently at about 5 feet with the nose being raised slowly at a rate such that an 8° nose up position is achieved with at least 2 centerline stripes visible over the nose just as the plane touches down with the stall warning horn going off.  Remember, every knot over the nominal speed for weight will carry you an additional 100 feet.  If you start the flare correctly, but at 80 knots, you will float an eye opening 1000 extra feet down the runway if you hold the plane off for a "normal" landing.  

It's pretty hard to bounce at a slow speed.  There just isn't enough energy.  So, my guess is that you touched down too fast and with too great a rate of descent before the plane was ready to land.  With enough runway in that condition and not ballooning too high, it is still possible to complete a good landing using the extra energy to hold the landing attitude and not releasing back pressure.  If that is uncomfortable due to the runway length remaing, then certainly, a go around is a safe choice.

Great aids in preventing this type of situation are both an AOA and the LHS System.

Hope to see many of you at the PPP in Santa Maria next weekend.

[rbp]

Can confirm. Made the 1450’ turnoff at MMU, solo with 1/2 fuel. 

[pkofman]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

You didn't ask, but from an instructor's point of view and with almost 30 years of Bravo ownership...

The Bravo has a short field no wind speed range depending on weight of between 75 knots and 65 knots.  The 65 knots applies with 1 person on board and 1 hour of fuel.  With 2 people and no headwind component the approach speed should have been no faster than 75 knots.  Without very gusty conditions 80 knots is waaaaay too fast.  The flare should start gently at about 5 feet with the nose being raised slowly at a rate such that an 8° nose up position is achieved with at least 2 centerline stripes visible over the nose just as the plane touches down with the stall warning horn going off.  Remember, every knot over the nominal speed for weight will carry you an additional 100 feet.  If you start the flare correctly, but at 80 knots, you will float an eye opening 1000 extra feet down the runway if you hold the plane off for a "normal" landing.  

It's pretty hard to bounce at a slow speed.  There just isn't enough energy.  So, my guess is that you touched down too fast and with too great a rate of descent before the plane was ready to land.  With enough runway in that condition and not ballooning too high, it is still possible to complete a good landing using the extra energy to hold the landing attitude and not releasing back pressure.  If that is uncomfortable due to the runway length remaing, then certainly, a go around is a safe choice.

Great aids in preventing this type of situation are both an AOA and the LHS System.

Hope to see many of you at the PPP in Santa Maria next weekend.

Hi Don.

so ive been flying this Bravo for 5 years.. nothing as long as you, but ive been having good landings for a very long time in some pretty rough weather conditions . This one surprised me as conditions we "very vfr" and calm!!... Your advise is fantastic as always. When I got my plane I purchased your landing video and it helped me transition to the longer body from my previous Mooney

All good stuff and thank you for posting your experience. 

Yesterday when I bounced it took me by surprise as I said, but the sight picture told me to go around while I could still make it happen with safe margins.There may have been a  possible save in mix  but I wasn't hanging around for it as options would have run out quickly if I screwed it up!

All the best

Pete

[Shadrach]

On 4/23/2022 at 12:00 AM, TGreen said:

Pete, would you say you bounced because you touched down going too fast and the plane wasn't done flying, or did you bleed off the speed too high above the ground and drop it in? Was it the speed or the high flare?

Airplanes don’t really bounce at or below stall speed and remain reusable. Even in something with spring steel gear like Cessna or Citabria, bouncing is typically a function excess energy combined with an sudden increase in AOA caused the touchdown (impact). Learning to do power off, minimum energy, steep approaches will make this clear, as even the “firmest” of  touchdowns will remain a touchdown. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Shadrach

[Sue Bon]

Hi all,

I'm not sure if this helps, but I recently made the worst landing of my life on St. Mary's Scilly island. It was a circling (visual) approach to RWY 14. Wind slightly off the nose at 22 kts. The approach was really turbulent due to low terrain just before the threshold. I noticed too late that the RWY had an initial incline, followed by a decline and I was super nervous so I didn't flare enough. I ended up doing a nose-wheel landing. As soon as it happened I thought, "go around!" but then I realised that I didn't have to because the plane didn't start bouncing. I think it's because my ground speed was so low (with the high and turbulent wind and the incline of the RWY) that there wasn't enough momentum to get the typical nose wheel bounce going.

With hindsight, I should have initiated the go-around on short final when I was surprised by the turbulence and the incline of the runway and felt overwhelmed. I hope if confronted with feeling overwhelmed on short final in the future, that I make a better decision.

[T. Peterson]

On 4/22/2022 at 6:37 PM, pkofman said:

Today in almost perfect no wind condition flying the Bravo I bounced my airplane after flying a very stable rnav approach. Not a huge bounce but enough for me to immediately  . "go around".. I probably set myself up for failure as the wind was all over the map ,and winds were shifting from tailwind to headwind. I was also very light ( so I was probably too fast ) and  , although I didn't think so over the numbers ( 80kts ) . Well something went wrong and I flared early and high , and then a bounce. I did not hang around . I just hit the power and called centre for a go around. Plane and pilot are good, no damage or carnage. My passenger however  gulped hard!!. She did not expect that!!  it was an ifr  flight requiring a go around.

My point here is that other than a bruised ego ,( ive flown this plane about 600 hours and have another  900  hrs in other  Mooneys), it is important to stick to the game and fly the numbers so that these birds sit down nicely. I was slow but probably not slow enough at my weight ).. When this sort of thing happens it shocks the system and you learn allot. So never get cocky and if instincts say go around  ( even if ifr on a vfr day ) do it.. I went full gas rather than try to save what felt like a very failed situation 

The plane is good , the ego is a bit bruised , (im the kids of person who will replay this in my mind for a while ) but I thought I would share  this because I suppose I am not the only one who has experienced something like this and honestly I sort of shocked me how quickly these sorts of things can get us into trouble

Maybe this might help others, if not , then it just feels good sharing my experience. 

Pete

 

 

I am an airline pilot and my ego gets bruised on a regular basis!

Stuff happens and you are to be congratulated on early recognizing a bad situation and going around. Good head work!!

The bad stuff happens when we try to salvage something that is not salvageable.

Learn, but don’t beat yourself up!! Been there, done that!

Have a wonderful day!

Torrey

[pkofman]

56 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

I am an airline pilot and my ego gets bruised on a regular basis!

Stuff happens and you are to be congratulated on early recognizing a bad situation and going around. Good head work!!

The bad stuff happens when we try to salvage something that is not salvageable.

Learn, but don’t beat yourself up!! Been there, done that!

Have a wonderful day!

Torrey

well thanks for the post and comment... I was amazed but this crappy situation only because It was what I perceived as perfectly set up and ready to land,, well I was wrong on that front and made a series of mistakes.   Im an engineer by profession and over analyze and then over think and over think. Im very good at beating my self up.. So on the "go  around landing", which was good, not perfect , I realized that I can still fly the plane but regardless I decided to probably  beat myself to a pulp for  a few days. What really helps me , is that I have a little book in my flight bag that I keep  in order to write the good and bad when I screw up. It makes for interesting reading when I look back and reminds me of stuff not to do ( and advice on how to fix things ). Ive been doing that for 25  years and it helps.. Great to know that commercial pro pilots have these the odd moment as well. appreciate the input!

[T. Peterson]

24 minutes ago, pkofman said:

well thanks for the post and comment... I was amazed but this crappy situation only because It was what I perceived as perfectly set up and ready to land,, well I was wrong on that front and made a series of mistakes.   Im an engineer by profession and over analyze and then over think and over think. Im very good at beating my self up.. So on the "go  around landing", which was good, not perfect , I realized that I can still fly the plane but regardless I decided to probably  beat myself to a pulp for  a few days. What really helps me , is that I have a little book in my flight bag that I keep  in order to write the good and bad when I screw up. It makes for interesting reading when I look back and reminds me of stuff not to do ( and advice on how to fix things ). Ive been doing that for 25  years and it helps.. Great to know that commercial pro pilots have these the odd moment as well. appreciate the input!

You are welcome! Even though I don’t know you, I get the feeling that you are a very fine pilot!

The good ones care about their performance and strive to be better.

[carusoam]

Speaking of known and getting to be known…

And once known… being remembered….

 

Be sure to add a pic to your avatar area…

This is incredibly helpful for keeping all the details straight….  Over multiple days…. Months and years…

 

MS gets more useful and interesting to everyone, with memory aids…. 
 

Go MS!
 

PP, with crummy memory issues only… not the avatar police…

Best regards,

-a-

[T. Peterson]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Speaking of known and getting to be known…

And once known… being remembered….

 

Be sure to add a pic to your avatar area…

This is incredibly helpful for keeping all the details straight….  Over multiple days…. Months and years…

 

MS gets more useful and interesting to everyone, with memory aids…. 
 

Go MS!
 

PP, with crummy memory issues only… not the avatar police…

Best regards,

-a-

Hi -a-,

 I am not sure of what you are getting at or if I am the intended recipient. What is the avatar area? Is it that tiny little square in the top left where some put an indecipherable picture? I don’t know how that would make me any more memorable than signing my name, but if that is what you are getting at I will do so provided I can figure out how!

May I say I see a bit of irony if you think I need to make myself better known when you withhold both your name and gender! I don’t say that with any criticism intended at all! I am sure you have good reasons, it just strikes me as a bit odd.

Of course I may have completely misunderstood your original statement and in that case please forgive me!

 I very much appreciate and enjoy your many posts.

best regards,

-Torrey-

[carusoam]

8 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

Hi -a-,

 I am not sure of what you are getting at or if I am the intended recipient. What is the avatar area? Is it that tiny little square in the top left where some put an indecipherable picture? I don’t know how that would make me any more memorable than signing my name, but if that is what you are getting at I will do so provided I can figure out how!

May I say I see a bit of irony if you think I need to make myself better known when you withhold both your name and gender! I don’t say that with any criticism intended at all! I am sure you have good reasons, it just strikes me as a bit odd.

Of course I may have completely misunderstood your original statement and in that case please forgive me!

 I very much appreciate and enjoy your many posts.

best regards,

-Torrey-

Hey Torrey!

This is a message I leave for many people new to MS…

Depending on the size of the screen they are using… everyone has a pic next to their screen name… some small screens may not show the pic…

Many MSers use a larger screen and the pics are more usable to them…

Often, people don’t use a real name… which makes them even more challenging to remember…

A conversation with five people in it can be extra confusing when they are all a color square with a letter in it…

+1 for real name!

+1 for a plane pic!

+1 for any other detail they can supply… home drome, N#, Mooney Model….

+1 for helping the memory challenged! 

Keep up the good work!

best regards,

-a-

[T. Peterson]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Hey Torrey!

This is a message I leave for many people new to MS…

Depending on the size of the screen they are using… everyone has a pic next to their screen name… some small screens may not show the pic…

Often, people don’t use a real name… which makes them even more challenging to remember…

A conversation with five people in it can be extra confusing when they are all a color square with a letter in it…

+1 for real name!

+1 for a plane pic!

+1 for any other detail they can supply… home drome, N#, Mooney Model….

+1 for helping the memory challenged! 

Keep up the good work!

best regards,

-a-

I thought that was what you meant. Your further clarification makes perfect sense. I just tried to post a picture. Don’t know if it worked. It’s a picture of my wife and me. Perhaps a picture of the plane would be better?

 I very much enjoy your bullet point writing style. You are very good at it.