4/20/22 Message from Jonny/Service Center

[MooneyMitch]

6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

The plant went on break to watch us leave

That’s super cool!!

[GeeBee]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Interestingly no-one else, neither on Beechtalk nor on American Bonanza Society (ABS), are saying that about magnesium ruddervator skins for the 10,000+ V tails that were built.  

In fact ABS only one month ago raised the prize again to find a replacement skin - now up to $527,310 and growing.  Textron is not, and has no plans to supply newly manufactured skins.  If they were now available and "in stock" it would be the biggest news on every Beechcraft site.  Perhaps you have heard of a few stockpiled or scrapped.  This remains a good example of the problem faced by aging GA fleets - accelerating scrapping and raising cost.

 

Your point is very valid.  The market is too small and the startup costs and liability too great for third party suppliers to go out of their way to supply vintage parts without material orders or to redesign and recertify new substitute parts.  This is the responsibility of the airplane manufacturer - Mooney needs to order the parts or build it themselves in a timely manner and in sufficient quantity, provide the capital, inventory and distribute.  Jonny has made it clear in his responses saying it multiple ways - Mooney lacks the capital and cashflow.

 

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=207042

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=207042&start=15

 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

How much is a Mooney factory annual before parts and squawks?

It would be very much dependent on which model.  I’d venture that the oldest models will cost the most.

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

Question isn’t what does it cost.

It’s what’s it worth?

Not trying to be pedantic, but I honestly think your asking the wrong question

Edited April 23, 2022 by A64Pilot

[PT20J]

I like the idea of taking my airplane to the factory for service by those that built it. However, I have three concerns that perhaps @Jonny could address as I think it likely that others have similar thoughts:

1. Is the service center staffed by long-term Mooney employees with deep knowledge of Mooney issues and history, or is it staffed by lesser experienced A&P/IAs? This has been a problem with some of the MSCs, largely due to the shortage of experienced mechanics and high turnover for more lucrative airline jobs. I would gladly pay a higher hourly rate to be assured deeply experienced Mooney mechanics.

2. Parts availability is clearly an issue and I would be concerned about having an annual inspection done at the factory and the airplane not being signed off due to a minor issue requiring an unavailable part and having my airplane stuck in Kerrville 1000 miles from home. Would another IA sign it off if the factory declared it unairworthy? Some thought needs to be given to this issue.

3. Having the factory perform service (and thus sell parts required to perform the service directly) puts the factory in competition with the MSCs. How will this be handled to ensure that we maintain a vibrant and active MSC network?

Skip

[toto]

 

22 minutes ago, PT20J said:

perhaps @Johnny could address

Question above for @Jonny from @PT20J

[A64Pilot]

Probably only a few of an aircraft factory employees have any kind of FAA certification, an A&P is unusual. There is no requirement for any certification, if you have a Certified Repair Station you have to give them a repair station certificate, that frankly gives them no privileges, just enters them into the FAA system

Very often a service center will only have one IA, and actually a Certified Repair Station doesn’t require any A&P’s or an IA, even the accountable manager doesn’t have to be an IA, much less an A&P.

Very common for a lot of the work to be performed by someone who’s working to meet the experience requirement to test for their A&P in a Service Center so they won’t have any FAA qualifications either.

 So while that may seem odd it’s very likely that the most experienced people in the plant may not have any FAA qualifications.

Its one of the unusual things about aircraft manufacturing. 

If he’s doing it like I did he’s put his best and brightest on the Repair Station roster, but they worked in the plant too building aircraft and shifted to where they were needed. I’d only pull them over to the Repair Station when needed.

I’d bet Lunch that the purpose of this center is a way to keep his best and brightest employed

Repair Station status gives you a lot of leeway, for instance the Repair Station could contract the factory to do paint work, or welding etc.

I went back and forth with the FAA regarding tools, they wanted me to buy a complete set for the Repair Station, because the couldn’t inspect anything on the factory floor, because that’s MIDO and ALL maintenance and repair is FSDO. But we worked it out, the repair station would requisition tools as needed along with a copy of the calibration form that went in the work order.

So what I’m saying is I’d be surprised if he’s hired people only for the center, it’s inefficient as in more people to pay, be interesting to hear.

An IA doesn’t ground an aircraft in an annual, he is supposed to give you a discrepancy list.

I’ve never had to do that, but it’s the procedure.

This explains it better than I ever could

https://shackelford.law/news-aviation/aviation-law-articles/the-how-and-where-of-discrepancy-maintenance-entries-after-an-annual-inspection/

Edited April 24, 2022 by A64Pilot

[PT20J]

44 minutes ago, toto said:

 

Question above for @Jonny from @PT20J

Thanks for spotting my typo -- I corrected the original post 

 

 

[chriscalandro]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Question isn’t what does it cost.

It’s what’s it worth?

Not trying to be pedantic, but I honestly think your asking the wrong question

I don’t think I am. 
 

I know how much my IA charges for an annual. I know what he is capable of. 
 

how many people at Mooney have actively worked on a C?  There hasn’t exactly been stability at Mooney since my airplane was built. 
 

what does it cost for Mooney to do my annual is the question I asked and the one I meant to ask. 
 

We can move on with additional questions from there. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by chriscalandro

[carusoam]

1 hour ago, chriscalandro said:

I don’t think I am. 
 

I know how much my IA charges for an annual. I know what he is capable of. 
 

how many people at Mooney have actively worked on a C?  There hasn’t exactly been stability at Mooney since my airplane was built. 
 

what does it cost for Mooney to do my annual is the question I asked and the one I meant to ask. 
 

We can move on with additional questions from there. 

Chris,

Where is your plane lately, is it out in CA with you?

Or still in FL getting ready to go west?

Getting an Annual from the factory… would have tremendous value if you were to be selling it…

Kerrville is about halfway in between…

Could also be treacherous for any stack of deferred maintenance items… that need updating…

 

 

For anyone not able to access the BT site… 

They are nearly celebrating the new ruddervator skins…

a copy and paste below…

 

+1 for Jonny… Skill + Class = Success… (been there, done that, will do it again…) 

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

Just checked:

LH 35-660002-25 U $8,610.00 13 in stock
RH 35-660002-26 U $8,099.00 15 in stock

With all the bemoaning, worry and speculation of what will come of the 35 fleet over the past 3 years I'm surprised they didn't sell out within minutes if not by owners by big shops wanting to scalp them down the road. If I owned a 35 I'd have bought a spare set just in case. They're only going to go up in price.

 

[A64Pilot]

On the Bo skins, where did they come from NOS or new manufacture? If new who made them? There is simply just too much money in those aircraft to let them die, many owners wouldn’t blink an eye at 20K skins, just as I’ver heard on here what I would consider eye watering amounts of money spent on glass. Compared to engines 20K isn’t much.

Different people have different budgets

There will be naysayers with anything. Having been both the factory and an IA, I can attest that the factory of course has resources that no IA could. Of course as with anything it has to be effectively managed, anything can be abused and run into the ground by an incompetent or greedy owner, I’ve seen that too. But if Mooney had that problem they would have sunk long ago.

From my experience the factory isn’t the place to get a budget Annual, if cost is the driver, maybe you don’t want to go there. Not meant to be ugly, I understand as cost is to be perfectly honest a big concern if mine, a spalled cam would hurt me pretty bad as an example

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Jonny]

15 hours ago, PT20J said:

I like the idea of taking my airplane to the factory for service by those that built it. However, I have three concerns that perhaps @Jonny could address as I think it likely that others have similar thoughts:

1. Is the service center staffed by long-term Mooney employees with deep knowledge of Mooney issues and history, or is it staffed by lesser experienced A&P/IAs? This has been a problem with some of the MSCs, largely due to the shortage of experienced mechanics and high turnover for more lucrative airline jobs. I would gladly pay a higher hourly rate to be assured deeply experienced Mooney mechanics.

2. Parts availability is clearly an issue and I would be concerned about having an annual inspection done at the factory and the airplane not being signed off due to a minor issue requiring an unavailable part and having my airplane stuck in Kerrville 1000 miles from home. Would another IA sign it off if the factory declared it unairworthy? Some thought needs to be given to this issue.

3. Having the factory perform service (and thus sell parts required to perform the service directly) puts the factory in competition with the MSCs. How will this be handled to ensure that we maintain a vibrant and active MSC network?

Skip

Hi Skip - Some quick answers:

The factory is staffed by folks steeped in Mooney tribal knowledge. We have folks that have been there for years, in addition to some new folks who we would like to pass the baton to.

As for parts, there will always be some issues getting parts. Manufactured parts not so much, but securing from the supply chain, etc. That being said, if we don't have them, no one else does. We are doing our best in this regard and things will improve. And if it's a minor issue that makes the plane un-airworthy, then it's probably not a minor issue. Our IA will be as careful as any other IA should be. If your plane isn't airworthy to begin with, def don't fly it 1000 NM to Kerrville!

As for competition, Mooney Service Centers already compete with one another. This is a geographical issue. I don't expect every Mooney owner will forego their local MSC for the factory. But we have spoken to the more local Texas MSC and they want us to succeed and support us in our efforts.

Jonny

[chriscalandro]

So no answer to my question at all. 
 

cool. 
 

wont be coming or calling and I’ll stick with my known trusted mechanic. 
 

thanks for simplification of the decision where and how to do my annual next month. 

[carusoam]

Just an ordinary Sunday afternoon at the Mooney factory… 

Responding to owners of pre-flown Mooneys, individually…

Fortunately, Skip asks the most well thought out, and important questions….

 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[MikeOH]

4 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

So no answer to my question at all. 
 

cool. 
 

wont be coming or calling and I’ll stick with my known trusted mechanic. 
 

thanks for simplification of the decision where and how to do my annual next month. 

Hmm,

Why do you insist he publish his pricing here?

Why so reluctant to pick up the phone?

Maybe you're not his kind of customer

[chriscalandro]

5 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm,

Why do you insist he publish his pricing here?

Why so reluctant to pick up the phone?

Maybe you're not his kind of customer

If I worked at or ran Mooney, I wouldn’t be so picky about choosing my customers, especially after publicly stating they can’t afford to support the fleet. 
 

all I asked for was a general idea of cost. A  question I feel was fair and legitimate and was completely ignored - much like the entire community was until the factory came up with this new idea for a revenue stream. 
 

I’m not confident in the factory or their services. But depending on costs it could have been a discussion for my upcoming annual. It’s not about the money, it’s about the value. And I’d say my IA has just as much knowledge of my airplane as anyone else factory or otherwise. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by chriscalandro

[carusoam]

5 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

If I worked at or ran Mooney….

1) That position has already been filled… 

2) MS is engaged in a great conversation with the head Honcho at Mooney…

3) Every day… we learn a little bit more how well things are going…

4) Keep in mind antagonizing the conversation gets in the way of the entire community…

5) Nobody has the right… to ruin the party for everybody else…

6) It wont be considered a great achievement to be the most ignored person on MS…

7) Mom always said… there is a right way and a wrong way to ask a question…

8) Mom is chuckling quietly at this one right now…

9) Join, be one, with the community Chris… you have been resisting endlessly for several years…

10) If you can’t be part of the community… try to avoid being in the way… 

Friendly request only… there are so many other aviation related boards available for antagonizing… go there and enjoy…

Best regards,

-a-

[A64Pilot]

I guess maybe some IA’s do have a set rate for how much is an annual, but I don’t see how that could be, maybe it’s the same as x dollars for a brake job, that’s means for most it’s overpriced. Some just need pads and that’s it, some need rotors turned or replaced and some need slave cylinders, you get the point. Or is it x dollars for a brake job only means pads, in which case it’s not really x dollars for a brake job is it, it’s x dollars for pads.

Give me a pristine aircraft and it won’t take long, a ramp rat will take much longer, why because it’s far easier to ensure the airworthiness of the pristine aircraft, the ramp rat will have you digging and digging, and you will spend a LOT of time cleaning and fixing all kinds of small things like missing and improper hardware, tieing up loose wires, replacing clogged zerks, list goes on and on, nit picking things not worth annotating on a work order but any good mechanic just can’t ignore because my name is going in the book and I can’t let junk out with my name on it. But it takes time to clean up years of neglect.

Now if I Annualed it last year, then yes I could give you a rate, because I know what I’m dealing with, because not a whole lot happens in 12 months.

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by A64Pilot

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

maybe some IA’s do have a set rate for how much is an annual

They do.  Repairs are over and above the inspection.

[Will.iam]

4 hours ago, Jonny said:we have spoken to the more local Texas MSC and they want us to succeed and support us in our efforts.

Jonny

Besides all the Texas MSC last year at aug were slammed with too many airplanes and not enough a&p. SWTA was booked up till the end of the year.  I was lucky to get a slot in with Dugosh but even he had 7 other mooneys there in annual and was being worked overtime and on weekends. That kind of workload is unsustainable for the long term without burnout. I wanted to go see the mooney factory across the airport but in Aug it looked like a ghost town except for one acclaim that was doing wicked high speed passes 1000ft over the runway. It sure looked amazing. 

[chriscalandro]

I don’t think a couple of weeks of activity followed by a year and a half of dead silence can be considered “engaged in great conversation. “

I asked a question about general rates. Something any shop should be able to provide. I’m aware of all the additional things that come with looking at a new to you airplane. 
 

This sounds like a quick way for Mooney to try to get some east money to stay afloat, which I’m good with, which is why I asked the question. However, there is nobody at the factory that had any appreciable contribution to my 1967 C. I’d like to know what the premium is for going to the factory vs sticking with my mechanic that knows my airplane. 
 

What I would not like, is for a perfectly legitimate question expressing interest in their services to be completely ignored. 

Let’s call it what it is.  If Mooney wasn’t trying to advertise their new maintenance services, we wouldn’t have heard a peep from this dude.

it’s going. To be a solid pass from me dawg. 
 

edit to add: it sounds a lot like that call from Elon hasn’t come in yet. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by chriscalandro

[carusoam]

Annuals and PPIs have really long wait times around the country…

PPIs seem to be the most time sensitive…

Their time line is asap! Not so much by the end of the month or end of next month…

…and the potential owner doesn’t have a long standing relationship with a Mooney knowledgable mechanic…

Many potential new owners don’t know what to look for when selecting their PPI…

Often PPIs are scaled to the value of the plane… covering from bare AW issues to a full check of all avionics for proper function…

A menu approach could be really helpful for the new owner…

PPIs are imperfect, but the best protection for the wallet…

Finding important corrosion during the PPI… saves a ton of dough…

Disappointing but dough saving…

Finding corrosion after the PPI… is a great opportunity for the company to show how they stand behind their work… 

Best regards,

-a-

[irishpilot]

@Jonny, I applaud your approach and factory maintenance & inspections are a great way to keep owners involved. 

I sold my Bravo because my family outgrew the UL and I was bummed to sell. If a future UL increase can get long body Mooneys between 1100-1300 UL, they would outclass a lot of competing certified aircraft in that market segment.

Mooney is a great aircraft and I'm happy to hear you're building back the ties to the factory and the heritage that comes with it. Thanks for the update and keep them coming!

 

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I guess maybe some IA’s do have a set rate for how much is an annual, but I don’t see how that could be, maybe it’s the same as x dollars for a brake job, that’s means for most it’s overpriced. Some just need pads and that’s it, some need rotors turned or replaced and some need slave cylinders, you get the point. Or is it x dollars for a brake job only means pads, in which case it’s not really x dollars for a brake job is it, it’s x dollars for pads.

Give me a pristine aircraft and it won’t take long, a ramp rat will take much longer, why because it’s far easier to ensure the airworthiness of the pristine aircraft, the ramp rat will have you digging and digging, and you will spend a LOT of time cleaning and fixing all kinds of small things like missing and improper hardware, tieing up loose wires, replacing clogged zerks, list goes on and on, nit picking things not worth annotating on a work order but any good mechanic just can’t ignore because my name is going in the book and I can’t let junk out with my name on it. But it takes time to clean up years of neglect.

Now if I Annualed it last year, then yes I could give you a rate, because I know what I’m dealing with, because not a whole lot happens in 12 months.

 

I’m just finishing one like that.  Years of less than careful maintenance takes a load of time to correct.  Hundreds of screws and Tinnerman clip nuts later we can almost put the plane together without trying to keep track of which stripped out hole gets the #10 screw and which get the super sized #12.

Trying to get it right takes time , money and patience from everyone concerned.

Clarence

[Jonny]

2 hours ago, chriscalandro said:

I don’t think a couple of weeks of activity followed by a year and a half of dead silence can be considered “engaged in great conversation. “

I asked a question about general rates. Something any shop should be able to provide. I’m aware of all the additional things that come with looking at a new to you airplane. 
 

This sounds like a quick way for Mooney to try to get some east money to stay afloat, which I’m good with, which is why I asked the question. However, there is nobody at the factory that had any appreciable contribution to my 1967 C. I’d like to know what the premium is for going to the factory vs sticking with my mechanic that knows my airplane. 
 

What I would not like, is for a perfectly legitimate question expressing interest in their services to be completely ignored. 

Let’s call it what it is.  If Mooney wasn’t trying to advertise their new maintenance services, we wouldn’t have heard a peep from this dude.

it’s going. To be a solid pass from me dawg. 
 

edit to add: it sounds a lot like that call from Elon hasn’t come in yet. 

Hey Chris - Just picking up on your thread now. The shop rate is $120/Hr. But as for your specific situation, if you have a mechanic you love that knows your airplane, you should definitely stick with him. Especially for an older plane like a 1967 C.  On a separate note, if you did reach out to the factory and didn't hear back, please let me know.  That would be a problem.

Jonny