Mooney factory for sale

[toto]

24 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I have to assume that the CEO of Mooney, Jonny Pollack, knows how many man hours it takes to build the plane.  It is not in the range that you quote.  Perhaps you forgot about this discussion.

I've withdrawn my "hours" comment above, because I don't think it was productive, but this seemed really unnecessary.

[1980Mooney]

5 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

I am sure I am just whistling in the dark, but if it takes a million to buy a Cirrus, wouldn’t a brand new J or K sell if it was half half that much?

 

4 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

You can't build it for half of that, let alone build it for 3/4 of that and make a profit.

For those new to this discussion @LANCECASPER is exactly correct

First - think about the difference between a base Mid-body M20J and a base Long-body Ovation M20R - and the differences in manufacturing.

• 2 cylinders (4 spark plugs, 2 exhaust manifolds, 2 intake manifolds, etc)
• 1 propeller blade (and maybe not even that depending if J buyer wants a 3 blade)
• forward the firewall about 9 inches of composite cowl and spinner
• behind the steel cage about 16 inches of aluminum

Everything else is the same - wings, landing gear, flight controls, insulation, seats, doors, hardware, glass, paint, etc.  And with the need for IFR capability they will have basically the same panel, avionics and autopilot.

How much money do you think a M20J will save over an Ovation? - maybe $50-75k I bet.  Maybe not even that.  And I am not talking about cheaping the M20J out with "1980's Royalite" interior. 

Now we know that Mooney could not make a profit when they priced the basic no options Ovation at $800k and the Acclaim at $900K - the little Gross Margin they made on each plane did not cover Overhead.  Hence they shut down manufacturing.

If they could save $75k on manufacturing a new J they still would not make a profit even if they priced it at $725k

The problem is the labor intensity and materials required to build a Mid-body is not hugely less than a Long-body.

[1980Mooney]

20 minutes ago, toto said:

I've withdrawn my "hours" comment above, because I don't think it was productive, but this seemed really unnecessary.

Apologies - We seem to go round and round on this topic. @LANCECASPER previously posted an article from Flying Magazine 1974 that highlighted that the Mooney was struggling with the high manhours required to build the plane and competiveness back in 1974.  Unfortunately not much has changed.  Meijing group reportedly spent money trying to make manufacturing of this largely handmade aircraft as efficient as possible.  But its design keeps it horribly labor intensive and expensive to manufacture.  Here we are again.  And other than the initial "transparency" following the latest change in ownership the Company/Factory/CEO have become "radio silence."

[toto]

13 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Apologies - We seem to go round and round on this topic. @LANCECASPER previously posted an article from Flying Magazine 1974 that highlighted that the Mooney was struggling with the high manhours required to build the plane and competiveness back in 1974.  Unfortunately not much has changed.  Meijing group reportedly spent money trying to make manufacturing of this largely handmade aircraft as efficient as possible.  But its design keeps it horribly labor intensive and expensive to manufacture.  Here we are again.  And other than the initial "transparency" following the latest change in ownership the Company/Factory/CEO have become "radio silence."

Thanks 80 -

I was reading through some older posts on MS, and this one struck me as a particularly interesting reflection on what the factory could do at a healthy run rate (44 units / mo). 

Whether these numbers are even in the wildest ballpark of what’s possible today, I don’t know - but the discussion (esp the reverse engineering of staff in place to produce the real output) is worth a quick read. 

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/3028-man-hours-to-build-a-mooney-just-wondering/

 

[GeeBee]

There is a difference between "hours to build" and "hours to assemble". Hours to build is an "all up" assessment which includes assembly and testing of sub components such as wiring harnesses, liquid lines, interior build up etc. Hours to assemble is what it takes for the production line to put all the parts together to make the final product including finishing and testing. 

My last wife started her industrial accounting career as a cost accountant for Ford Motor. Knowing the figures they used to come up with for cars, I am surprised it is as low as 9000 hours for a Mooney.

[RobertGary1]

6 hours ago, toto said:

I’m not sure why everyone is bad mouthing Mooney on MooneySpace today, but this just is not an experience I’ve had with any young aviator talking about Mooneys. 

The brand is just exclusive enough that many new to flying haven’t been in one before, and because they’re almost all retractables, there’s a general fear of complexity and insurability. But I have never heard a young aviator say they aren’t interested in a Mooney because it looks like a dated design or that it looks like an “old person’s airplane.”

Is this really a comment that you’ve heard 20-something aviators say when looking at a Mooney on the ramp?

The comment I get more than any other from young aviators is “I heard those things are really fast. How fast does it go?”

There was a TikTok trend about 6 months ago where young pilots would rank and generalize each type. That’s when I learned this. Pretty much universal they all associated mooneys as old guys and Clorox as modern. 

I haven’t seen people bad mouthing Mooneys here. I’d be surprised. 

[Brandt]

11 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

There was a TikTok trend about 6 months ago where young pilots would rank and generalize each type. That’s when I learned this. Pretty much universal they all associated mooneys as old guys and Clorox as modern. 

I haven’t seen people bad mouthing Mooneys here. I’d be surprised. 

Many young people like Kia’s too. Very modern. I’ll stick with Porsche. Oh, and by the way, none of the 20 somethings on TikTok can afford a plane anyway. 
 

My Mooney turns heads on the tarmac. Most recently a Gulfstream pilot stopped me and wanted to talk about it. That doesn’t happen with Camrys, sorry I meant Cirrus’s.

[Schllc]

38 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

There is a difference between "hours to build" and "hours to assemble". Hours to build is an "all up" assessment which includes assembly and testing of sub components such as wiring harnesses, liquid lines, interior build up etc. Hours to assemble is what it takes for the production line to put all the parts together to make the final product including finishing and testing. 

My last wife started her industrial accounting career as a cost accountant for Ford Motor. Knowing the figures they used to come up with for cars, I am surprised it is as low as 9000 hours for a Mooney.

There is, always has been, and always will be a demand for finely crafted, hand built things that people want. The problem isn’t how long it takes to build or how much it costs, the problem is making people want to buy. 
This is where cirrus excelled. They created their market with a culture. It involves financing, training, tax consulting, leasebacks and a community. They brought people who didn’t even think about airplanes into the fold to become owners. 
They made people want them. 

[Pinecone]

On 3/5/2023 at 4:10 PM, donkaye said:

At $100,000 for an engine and $150,000 for avionics, that leaves $250,000 for the airframe, labor, and profit.  Bottom line--in my opinion, highly unlikely.

$150,000 for avionics is a pretty high end panel.  And install costs will be a bit lower that doing an existing airplane, as they will not have to disassemble the interior and remove old wiring and equipment.

$100,000 will get a G3X with EIS, GTN-750Xi, high end audio panel , GFC-500, and more installed.  And that is buying the avionics at full retail.

[Pinecone]

IMO, the hours to build a Mooney could be cut.  But it will take time and money up front.

Much is made of how the Mooneys are hand made, and they are.  But why not do like RV and standardize the parts?  I mean the panels, ribs, tubing pieces.  This way the workers do not have to hand fit each piece and hand drill all the holes.  Matching hole, again, like the RV line.   And then is becomes more an assembly process, and a LOT less time.

Even the tubing for the cage and get CNC machined, put in a jig, and welded.   I looked at building a homebuilt with a tube fuselage, and there is a company I could order the tubing kit with every tube cut and end shaped to fit together perfectly.

[ArtVandelay]

I think a good analog would be boat building, they can build smaller sailboats for less than $500k, but many only want to build bigger more expensive ones. That’s many hours of fiberglass work, wood work, marine electronics, engine, etc. And yes, boat builders have problems these days as well, like competing with their own boats on the used market.

[T. Peterson]

On 3/6/2023 at 5:15 PM, RobertGary1 said:

I really hate to say this but the 20 somethings immediately know we're from an older generation by the fact we're flying a Mooney. When you sit in a Clorox bottle everything feels more modern, luxury car like. The Mooney feels like a J-3 to these kids.

There was a whole viral thing going around last year of who flies what airplane. When they showed a Mooney of course they showed an old white guy. Its their image.

 

-Robert

Who cares about what a 20 something thinks? If he or she can have such discriminating tastes in an airplane it is highly doubtful he or she is spending money he or she earned. There are of course some very young successful entrepreneurs, but  they are most likely respectful.

 

[T. Peterson]

11 hours ago, Pinecone said:

IMO, the hours to build a Mooney could be cut.  But it will take time and money up front.

Much is made of how the Mooneys are hand made, and they are.  But why not do like RV and standardize the parts?  I mean the panels, ribs, tubing pieces.  This way the workers do not have to hand fit each piece and hand drill all the holes.  Matching hole, again, like the RV line.   And then is becomes more an assembly process, and a LOT less time.

Even the tubing for the cage and get CNC machined, put in a jig, and welded.   I looked at building a homebuilt with a tube fuselage, and there is a company I could order the tubing kit with every tube cut and end shaped to fit together perfectly.

Thanks for a positive note. If a gutsy entrepreneur is ever able to pull it off many of the naysayers will be claiming they knew all along it could be done!

[MikeOH]

55 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

Thanks for a positive note. If a gutsy entrepreneur is ever able to pull it off many of the naysayers will be claiming they knew all along it could be done!

Oh, every one of them will be claiming they said it first

[LANCECASPER]

On 3/7/2023 at 2:32 AM, 1980Mooney said:

Meijing group reportedly spent money trying to make manufacturing of this largely handmade aircraft as efficient as possible.  But its design keeps it horribly labor intensive and expensive to manufacture.  

In my opinion the biggest mistake that has been made in recent times happened in 2016. I was there at a press conference at Sun N Fun in 2014 when the new ownership represented by Jerry Chen announced that it would start making airplanes again. They poured a small fortune into the factory, got some orders, got the assembly line up and running, and by mid 2015 were slowly producing airplanes and ramping up.

In early 2016 they made a huge announcement about a new Ovation and Acclaim with two doors and new interior, update G1000 - a lot of improvements. One major problem - they thought it would be a piece of cake just to update their type certificate and start producing. They never should have announced it until it was ready to sell. Sales of the one-door Mooneys, which were picking up, dried up immediately, with people even canceling orders, willing to wait for the new one. It was over a year until they had all of the required flight tests and FAA approval. There were some production challenges with the composite cabin and the door alignments.

The biggest problem was the Chinese investors completely lost their patience and confidence that this was going to work after making that type of investment and they began pulling back. I really believe there was a window of opportunity where if they could have continued to invest for a little longer, there was enough good press and interest in Mooney at the time, that had they been able to hold on, airplanes started selling like crazy from 2020 until now. Companies that have been making airplanes have a backlog and sadly Mooney has nothing to sell. Oh well . . . 

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Who cares about what a 20 something thinks? If he or she can have such discriminating tastes in an airplane it is highly doubtful he or she is spending money he or she earned. There are of course some very young successful entrepreneurs, but  they are most likely respectful.

 

If I were thinking about buying Mooney for the long term I would 100% care what 20 somethings care about. Are your customers dying off???

[exM20K]

10 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

If I were thinking about buying Mooney for the long term I would 100% care what 20 somethings care about. Are your customers dying off???

I’m not the same “me” that I was in my 20’s.  Thank goodness.

-dan

[carusoam]

Inflation in the 70s was interesting…

You could buy something new this year… and sell it next year for more than you paid.

So using it for a year appeared to cost nothing…

Everyone around the water cooler spoke about their investment in their car/plane/boat…

stepping up to the next model made a bunch of sense… Cents…

If you bought something that was too challenging to own… you could just sell it to the next person for less than a new one…

 

Truth be known… inflation was more terrible than most people understood at the time…

It took decades to realize how much dough was being lost on things that weren’t affordable.

 

+1 for price stability and maximum employment… -Fed’s Dual Mandate

 

Imagine how easy it was to sell a plane to somebody that wanted one…

Buy it today, it will be worth more tomorrow…!

Technically, it was worth a bit less, but it was priced higher… inflation masked the being worth a bit less part…

 

A big challenge for those with the dough to spend…

If I blow 1MM on a toy… there is an opportunity lost cost that is quite large… and annual budget for the toy to stay airworthy, and out of the elements….

 

Ask a millennial why they aren’t a pilot… or GenX, Y or any other….

The cost of training is an expensive first step… several thousands of dollars…

The next step isn’t as obvious… the rental plane they have become familiar with… has to be back after their flight has finished…

 

People have to be sorta financially intelligent to play this game long term…

Not much different than owning a home…

But, What percentage of millenials own their own home today? 
 

holy cow homes have gotten expensive again… and interest rates are up combatting inflation…

 

The customer for a great new XC airplane… is often a businessman with two distant factories, offices, or customers… It is a financially lower cost solution…. Only a few experimentals fit this category…

 

Nothing cooler than being able to see a customer in their office tomorrow… except, if they need parts, or a service man… that can happen today…  

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-