KAP 150 replacement suggestions

[Tmack201]

Nav coupler in my KAP 150 has gone bad. I am wanting to replace it with the AeroCruze 230, but it is a replacement for the KFC 150, not KAP.

My Mooney is a 1992 M20J with Garmin G500, GTN 750, GTN 650, GAD 43 for analog to KAP 150, and all other supporting hardware. I considered

Garmin GFC 500, but you have to install a G5. I already have a MidContinent standby attitude indicator, so going the Garmin route will give me 3

attitude indicators on a very small panel, which I consider overkill and excessive clutter. By replacing with the AeroCruze 230, I use the existing location

and keep my panel clean! Has anyone replaced their KAP 150 and can give me some input as to downtime and expense? All advice is appreciated.

 

[WaynePierce]

Following...

[Will.iam]

Is the aerocruze finally approved for Mooney and parts available?

[Tmack201]

Just heard from my support people who did some research. AeroCruze is not available. Oh well!

[Tmack201]

Exploring my options. Has anyone changed their KAP 150 to a KFC 150?

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, Tmack201 said:

Exploring my options. Has anyone changed their KAP 150 to a KFC 150?

I went through the whole thought process because I have a 1994 J with a KAP 150. The cheapest immediate option is to get the KAP repaired. Mid Continent, Bevan, Executive Autopilots are good in my experience. Also, you can find used computers on eBay, though the 28 volt versions are harder to source.

In my case, I plan to keep the plane for ten years and want reliability. The 30 year old King will just get older and more expensive to keep running as time goes on. So, I bit the bullet and bought the more capable GFC 500.

In your case, you could install the G5 and sell the standby gyro. If you need to fill a round hole, the GI 275 will drive the GFC 500.

I’d avoid switching to a KFC 150. All you will get out of the deal is a flight director for whatever it costs to retrofit and you’ll still have a faikure prone legacy system.

Skip

[carusoam]

1) Follow the trutrak thread to see where it goes….

2) Or go big G and deal with the extra G5…

3) Waiting on BK hasn’t worked very well since the 90s…

How much time do you have?

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Is the aerocruze finally approved for Mooney and parts available?

When people hear Aerocruze their minds usually go to the AeroCruze 100 (TruTrak), but the Aerocruze 230 has been available for over two years to replace the KFC150.

 

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

When people hear Aerocruze their minds usually go to the AeroCruze 100 (TruTrak), but the Aerocruze 230 has been available for over two years to replace the KFC150.

 

Maybe. I talked to several shops and couldn’t find one that had installed one so I don’t think they are selling a lot. The KAP 150 is the same as the KFC 150 except for the computer which includes the flight director. I asked BK on multiple occasions if it could be approved for a KAP 150 and they never returned my calls. I finally decided that even if it were available that I would not buy it because I don’t trust BK to support it.

Skip 

[Z W]

In your situation, I would get the G5 or GI275 and GFC500.  You won't regret it.  The autopilot, especially with a yaw damper, really transforms the plane, and both it and the standby will connect to the expensive Garmin items already in your panel very nicely.  I think you'll regret spending the kind of money and downtime required for a new autopilot and not getting the GFC500.  Most autopilots seem to last 30-40 years.  You don't want to have to do it again.

[MisfitSELF]

For my "big avionics upgrade" last year I wanted to get rid of the vacuum pump and the directional/autopilot gyro as they have both failed me in the last couple of years.  I also wanted to set up my airplane to upgrade the autopilot at some future date.  I went with dual 275's and a 750 as it coupled almost perfectly with my KAP-150 and should give me the upgrade path to the GFC500.

Aside from having a pitch bobble with my current autopilot, I'm actually quite happy with the combination of 275's, 750 and my KAP-150.  For the OP, I'd consider just biting the bullet and either get the G5 or 275 installed.  I know -- it's going to hurt the wallet to get the GFC500 by itself!

[Ragsf15e]

Swap out your current backup with -275 or g5 as recommended.  Go gfc500.  That’s your best short and long term solution.  Cost of swapping the b/u instrument is negligible when considering the entire autopilot installation.

[Lance Link]

If you are interested in a used KFC 150 PM me, we just put in a GFC 500.

[Frank]

You have a G500, isn't that enough to make the GFC 500 work?

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[PT20J]

45 minutes ago, Frank said:

You have a G500, isn't that enough to make the GFC 500 work?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

No. The GFC 500 uses a distributed software architecture. Most of the software is in the PFD. Some is in the servos. The only PFDs with the GFC 500  software currently are the G5, G3X and the GI 275. 

Skip

[Frank]

No. The GFC 500 uses a distributed software architecture. Most of the software is in the PFD. Some is in the servos. The only PFDs with the GFC 500  software currently are the G5, G3X and the GI 275. 
Skip

None of which play well with Avidyne IFD navigators?

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[PT20J]

34 minutes ago, Frank said:

None of which play well with Avidyne IFD navigators?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

The avidyne navigators emulate a GNS so the should interface well with Garmin displays.

[Kevin_]

On 9/2/2021 at 2:03 PM, MisfitSELF said:

For my "big avionics upgrade" last year I wanted to get rid of the vacuum pump and the directional/autopilot gyro as they have both failed me in the last couple of years.  I also wanted to set up my airplane to upgrade the autopilot at some future date.  I went with dual 275's and a 750 as it coupled almost perfectly with my KAP-150 and should give me the upgrade path to the GFC500.

Aside from having a pitch bobble with my current autopilot, I'm actually quite happy with the combination of 275's, 750 and my KAP-150.  For the OP, I'd consider just biting the bullet and either get the G5 or 275 installed.  I know -- it's going to hurt the wallet to get the GFC500 by itself!

I'm interested in the "pitch bobble" you have. I have a '92 M20J with a KAP-150. I upgraded to a GTN750 and Aspen ProMax and have a gentle nose up/down motion in some descents. A little bit of forward pressure on the yoke overcomes it. What's your experience with the KAP-150 and "nose bobble"? Thanks. Kevin

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, Kevin_ said:

I'm interested in the "pitch bobble" you have. I have a '92 M20J with a KAP-150. I upgraded to a GTN750 and Aspen ProMax and have a gentle nose up/down motion in some descents. A little bit of forward pressure on the yoke overcomes it. What's your experience with the KAP-150 and "nose bobble"? Thanks. Kevin

You might get a suggestion or two from @Bob Weber.

[MisfitSELF]

10 hours ago, Kevin_ said:

I'm interested in the "pitch bobble" you have. I have a '92 M20J with a KAP-150. I upgraded to a GTN750 and Aspen ProMax and have a gentle nose up/down motion in some descents. A little bit of forward pressure on the yoke overcomes it. What's your experience with the KAP-150 and "nose bobble"? Thanks. Kevin

I may need to message Bob Weber as another poster suggested but here's my "pitch bobble" -- often when even the autopilot is on, whether in climb, descent, or altitude hold, my airplane will start a low amplitude oscillation or bounce in pitch at about a 1hz rate.  I can arrest it with some yoke pressure but it will return.  It seems to be "filtered out" or doesn't develop if I'm in turbulent air.

This behavior existed before I installed the Garmin 275's and 750.

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by MisfitSELF

[PeteMc]

On 9/1/2021 at 2:23 PM, Tmack201 said:

but you have to install a G5

Or I believe you can install a GI 275 which is a much more robust unit.  Yes, pricier than the G5, but you should be able to drop it in where your AeroCruze 230 currently is located and get a lot more out of the required upgrade. 

And I really haven't done much research on autopilots, but seems like a lot of people have S-Tec.  Is that an option for you?

 

[Pinecone]

WRT tp KAP 150 pitch bobble, I find that momentarily activating the CWS button stops it

 

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/28/2023 at 6:02 AM, Kevin_ said:

I'm interested in the "pitch bobble" you have. I have a '92 M20J with a KAP-150. I upgraded to a GTN750 and Aspen ProMax and have a gentle nose up/down motion in some descents. A little bit of forward pressure on the yoke overcomes it. What's your experience with the KAP-150 and "nose bobble"? Thanks. Kevin

Most Aspen installations where there is a King autopilot haven't had the Aspen aligned with the autopilot with the King breakout box. This was always necessary whenever the attitude indicator was changed out. There are not a lot of shops anymore that have the King equipment to do that or the techs that have ever done it.

Here is someone else on another forum that needs to do the same thing: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/kts-158-aspen-calibration.144959/

Also this has been discussed on Mooneyspace:

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/41296-gi275-pitch-signal-to-kap150-autopilot-pitch-porpoising/

 

[Kevin_]

Thanks very much! The shop that installed it has been around since avionics ran on steam (gauges) and ought to know. I'll run this by them.

[Jake@BevanAviation]

To piggyback on what @LANCECASPER said, I would specifically ask the shop how they aligned the Aspen to the King autopilot and what method did they use.  If they mention using the EA100 tool I have seen problems when using that method and I do it a different way.  Normally when the alignment is off you might see a slight yoke pump.  It's mostly an annoying yoke movement, very minor change in attitude from what I have seen.

If it is a larger oscillation around 1-2 hz that could be a tach feedback issue.  Typically, when the tach feedback is bad the system is overly aggressive in corrections causing oscillations and noticeable in all modes of flight.