Does a M20K cost over $300/hour?

[Ozz]

Hi All, have really enjoyed perusing this forum as I progress my search for an M20K. In doing a bit of budgeting I came up with a number that seems a bit on the high side and wanted to see what you all think. As a bit of background I live in Toronto, Canada and fly about 80 hours a year, Montreal once a month (260NM) and to the US East Coast (350NM) a couple times a year, in addition to the random weekend trip. Below are my rough numbers, while looking at everything in at an hourly rate could have issues, I have access to a Cessna 182T G1000 for under $300 per hour that is quite accessible and fulfills the mission well enough; so just using that as a bit of a benchmark for how bad of a financial decision this will be. Really looking forward to hearing your insight. Many Thanks!

Indicative Cost Breakdown (USD)
- Insurance = $1,500 / 80 hours = $19 / hour
- Hanger = $5,000 = $63 / hour
- Annual = $5,000 = $63 / hour
- Oxygen = $1,000 / 80 hours = $13 / hour
- Oil, Filters, Etc. = $1,000 / 80 hours = $13 / hour
- GPS Data, Weather, Charts, Etc. = $1000 / 80 hours = $13 / hour
- Misc. = $1,000 / 80 hours = $13 / hour
- Cost of Capital (I could keep this money in the stock market or buy a property) = $150,000 * 5% = $7,500 / 80 hours = $94 / hour 
- Engine overhaul (assumes something else would have to be fixed as well) = $40,000 / 2,000 hours = $20 / hour
- Propeller overhaul = $4,000 / 1,000 = $4 / hour
- Fuel: $7 per gallon * 13 GPH = $91 / hour
Total TACH Time = $406 per hour ($528 CAD)
Total HOBS Time (80%) = $325.00 per hour ($422 CAD)

[Mooney Dog]

8 minutes ago, Ozz said:

I have access to a Cessna 182T G1000 for under $300 per hour that is quite accessible and fulfills the mission well enough; so just using that as a bit of a benchmark for how bad of a financial decision this will be.

Its a terrible decision. You should buy 2. 

 

For real though, you have access to this 182. Is it a club or a friend? that makes a big difference. If its a club and say it doesnt have overnights, that still leaves scheduling and other people wanting to use the airplane. With my own plane. If i decide friday morning i want bbq in another city and can just got hop in the plane and go, no problem. And if i want to stay the night, i only pay the ramp fee more than not. 

[hubcap]

Fly more hours so your cost per hour is less......problem solved.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Ozz…

Your insurance data needs an update…  find Parker… he can help you plan the details of what your plane will cost you to insure.

+ Add an extra 1amu for first year for insurance…

The Mooney will have better life value than that brand C…

Unfortunately there aren’t that many M20Ks to rent for comparison…. 
 

watch your engine OH costs…  to make sure they include everything from tip to tail… turbo, exhaust parts, engine controls, MP controller…

Canada has special rules for GA pilots… the OH of certain things is mandatory related to a time in service…

 

But hey… who needs a fine point pencil when in the raw planning stage…?

You have done enough financial work to get to the next level…

 

Skip the comparison, now get on to the hunt….  
 

So… you are in Canada… Are you familiar with Tri-city Aero?

This place has service for the lucky Mooneys in Eastern Canada…

Best regards,

-a-
 

 

[Hank]

Hangar, oxygen, oil changes, GPS data and fuel appear high to me. $7US/gallon? 

Hangar rates vary tremendously by location. 1K will buy an awful lot of oxygen, a lot more than 80 hours worth. I change my own oil every 50 hours, costs about $100. My GPS data is ~$400/year. And $7 fuel would probably put a For Sale sign in the window . . . .

[JoeM]

Most aircraft (or boat) owners don’t buy because it makes sense financially. They buy because they want to own their own plane. There’s a saying that “if you have to ask how much it costs, you can’t afford it”. I prefer not to ask. 

Another option, if you don’t fly enough to justify owning yourself, is to get a partner. This has worked well for me as my yearly hours have declined. 

[KSMooniac]

I never add it all up. Seriously. I could figure out the per hour cost, but owning is about so much more than saving money versus a rental as Jim wisely shared.

You'll fly more than 80 hours, especially if you fly that much as a renter currently. You'll probably fly twice that! When you can decide on Friday afternoon that you want to take a trip this weekend, you can and will be gone in an hour or two. You cannot include that ability in your cost per hour. Nor can you include a number for quality of life improvement.

Do it because you want to have your own time machine or magic carpet. Do it because you enjoy the hobby, pride of ownership, and the practical transportation that comes along with owning a Mooney. Come on in, the water is fine!

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[Ozz]

Wow, thanks so much for all the insight and the crazy quick responses... wish my lawyer was as responsive as you guys!

As you mentioned, definitely going down this path for the added flexibility, the "intangibles" and to fly a Mooney. Just was hoping to have some ability to justify this financially to my bride. @KSMooniac@bluehighwayflyer @JoeM

Thanks for the heads up on the insurance side of things and for the Tri-city Aero recommendation, that would have been my next question. @carusoam 

@hubcap I wish I could get more hours in, that would solve all my problems... unfortunately just not in the cards right now. 

I did intentionally try to over estimate numbers just to be on the safe side. Petrol is not cheap up here, the three main airports I fly out of 100LL is C$2.26, $2.30, $2.38 per liter (roughly $6.50 per gallon). @Hank

[carusoam]

With the invention of the computer… and the internet… and hangar homes…. 

Complete flight planning including weather check… can be done near instantaneously…. For a go/NoGo decision…  a  few minutes more if you are just learning where the weather systems are for the day…

 

Entering a flight plan in an iPad takes a few more minutes…

Next thing you know… you have walked out of the kitchen into the hangar and you are loading the flight plan into the nav system over its WiFi …

Pre-flight takes a few more minutes depending on how you left things the day before…

Inflight weather updates are continuous…

 

Lets say your customer calls… he wants to talk about a new machine for his factory… he says… ‘how soon can you give a presentation?’

Your competitor has a pretty good machine too… but he fly’s a slow plane like the 182 and takes a day or two to get in the schedule…

You get to tell your customer… I can be there later today… or tomorrow if you like…. I fly a Mooney…   
 

It may take some time to get up to this type of efficiency…

When you sell machinery… it is fun to discuss the machines you use for business…. Sometimes they fly jets….  
 

I have had two customers that flew Mooneys before moving up.  They made lowly drink cups… (they were pretty fancy lowly drink cups)

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[CharlesHuddleston]

I've never thought to break it down into that much detail. I'm afraid of what I might see! Having said that, I agree with @JoeM above... and I don't ask!

 

If it's a justification for your bride, tell her about all the destinations that would be accessible within a 3, 4, or 5 hour flight radius of where you are!

[carusoam]

Quicken is an awesome tool…

With a touch of a button… I can see how much I paid for insurance over the last 21 years… or the airport… or the house…. Or if my wife’s paycheck has come in…

Staying on top of bills is magical…

You can get so adept at handling the small dollars… your SIC will never look.  she will just ask you….  How you handle that is up to you….  
 

Once this system is in place…. You will never push the report button again, until you have to…

 

PP thoughts only, not a finance guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[larryb]

Can you take your rental 182 for a 1 hour flight to your vacation home, stay for 2 weeks, and return? Can you take it on a 3 week 40 hour cross-the-usa trip?  And it's nice knowing that you aren't really paying $5 / minute when ATC tells you "hold for release, estimated time 20 minutes."

 

Nit-picking your costs, if you are really paying $1000 / year on oxygen a transfill system would make a lot of sense. 

 

But yes, that's what it costs.

[Jetrn]

Aircraft 1988 M20K/ 252.  I pay I as go for Maintenance.  Annual use 75 hours.  Monthly hanger $270. Insurance $2600. Fuel 4.75-5.20 currently in northern California. Trip from Sacramento area to Las Vegas or Los Angeles 2.5 hours roughly 23-28 gallons $150. Oxygen $75 per fill @ fbo's , up front cost to build my transfill system $700, swap tanks at welding shop $40. Oil change every 25 hours $90. Garmin and foreflight subscriptions. I fly locally for fun and destination trips.  My wife is strictly a destination flyer and watches movies on her iPad or laptop. She uses O2 every time we fly above 4000ft, her o2 decreases and regularly checks using a pulse ox. So i have to regularly fill the o2 system after a few flights. Family memories priceless. 

[carusoam]

How you buy your M20K can be really interesting…

Some people… like to go to the Mooney store and buy a perfectly pre-flown version off the shelf…  for that… find Jimmy at GMax to see what he has available on the shelf…

Others have been more creative at capturing the bird of their dreams…  with the caveat…. ‘batteries required’ or something like that… Engine OH may be required…  some logs may not come with the plane…

Some people prefer the more benign approach… Buy the plane drome somebody they know… then add a few updates to the instrument panel and chairs….

An M20K is a real pilot’s plane… not the best fit for a low time pilot, not the worst either… unless that pilot really wants to spend the required time and effort… to be the safest pilot possible…  it has a whole other level of capability that the non TC’d birds don’t have…  it is worth the extra effort… 

Before selecting the M20K… know all of the engine options they have available…   Start with the Rocket, then the Encore, 252, and the 231…. Check which engine case it comes with…  what does it have for an MP controller…? Does it have, or can you add an intercooler for that?

 

All fun stuff that M20K guys like to think about during the purchase process….

 

Go M20K!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Mooney in Oz]

Above all, flying a Mooney is the most satisfying fun you can have with your clothes on 

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

If you factor in both cost of capital and engine and propellor reserves as you have done I can see an M20K costing this much per hour to operate 80 hours a year.  Yes.  Keep renting the 182 if it meets your needs and costs are your primary consideration.  

This is the answer, very few people actually analyze the full cost as it appears that you have, sure you can reduce some numbers like doing your own O2 fills etc and Annual seems a bit high, but you have captured the actual cost, very few figure in the loss of income from taking that money out of investments, the ones who borrow money it’s  even worse.

What made me want to buy was I rented a little Archer in Killeen Tx so a couple of us pilots could take our Wives out to eat where we often flew to in military aircraft.

Well the last renters had puked in the backseat and it wasn’t cleaned out so we did the best we could and put news papers down, then the battery was dead and we had to jump start it, when we did that I found that the Pos battery cable had been rubbing on the elevator push pull tube. 

If you have access to a good, well maintained clean aircraft and only fly 80 hours a year, then from a financial perspective you should rent, but then you can’t make a logical financial case for an airplane unless you live in Alaska or something and really need one.

Plus by renting you can fix costs, us owners could be one flight away from an expensive repair.

I know and accept that my airplanes are a depreciating asset and cost lots of money, but I enjoy them and as an A&P with a hanger home that helps cut costs. Frankly from what I hear it costs many on here to own, I simply couldn’t afford it.

Edited August 25, 2021 by A64Pilot

[ArtVandelay]

Indicative Cost Breakdown (USD)
- Insurance = $1,500 / 80 hours = $19 / hour
- Hanger = $5,000 = $63 / hour
- Annual = $5,000 = $63 / hour
- Oxygen = $1,000 / 80 hours = $13 / hour
- Oil, Filters, Etc. = $1,000 / 80 hours = $13 / hour
- GPS Data, Weather, Charts, Etc. = $1000 / 80 hours = $13 / hour
- Misc. = $1,000 / 80 hours = $13 / hour
- Cost of Capital (I could keep this money in the stock market or buy a property) = $150,000 * 5% = $7,500 / 80 hours = $94 / hour 
- Engine overhaul (assumes something else would have to be fixed as well) = $40,000 / 2,000 hours = $20 / hour
- Propeller overhaul = $4,000 / 1,000 = $4 / hour
- Fuel: $7 per gallon * 13 GPH = $91 / hour
Total TACH Time = $406 per hour ($528 CAD)
Total HOBS Time (80%) = $325.00 per hour ($422 CAD)

You annual should be less, except the first 2 tend to be more expensive because previous owner deferred maintenance.
Oxygen $1000 for 80 hours?? Should be closer to $100 unless you’re use medical oxygen.
$7/gal for fuel? Try not getting fuel at the big expensive airports.
Oil/filters $1000? Learn how to change the oil/filter yourself, cut that down to a $100.

Finally ignore cost of capital, if you think in those terms, a vehicle, a boat, a plane, clothes, fancy phone/tablet, and other things stop being fun toys…life is meant to be enjoyed and you can’t take it with you.

[Z W]

Quotes about a year ago for a TSIO-360-MB overhaul ranged from $60k-$85k.  The $85k was with all the extras (turbo, exhaust, hoses, etc.)  FYI.

With the Mooney, the good news is, your fuel bill will usually be less than the hotel and rental car at your destination.  Always feels good.

[Hank]

26 minutes ago, Zane Williams said:

With the Mooney, the good news is, your fuel bill will usually be less than the hotel and rental car at your destination.  Always feels good.

And less than your friends who fly other planes, too. Even my C walks away from 182s, on about 60% of the fuel. 

[anthonydesmet]

37 minutes ago, Zane Williams said:

Quotes about a year ago for a TSIO-360-MB overhaul ranged from $60k-$85k.  The $85k was with all the extras (turbo, exhaust, hoses, etc.)  FYI.

With the Mooney, the good news is, your fuel bill will usually be less than the hotel and rental car at your destination.  Always feels good.

I agree. Most of your numbers look accurate but your insurance and overhaul cost seem low. I’d add at least another 15K to your overhaul having just gone through it myself.  
You also mention your longest mission is about 350NM’s.  Have you considered a nice J model? Lower operating costs and a little bit better performance over the 182.  I was initially looking at J’s but my routine mission was 650+ nm.  The jump from under 400 nm to 650 resulted in my decision for a K.  If not I would have went with a J.

agree with everyone else on the benefits of owning vice sharing/renting.

[GeeBee]

I don't even calculate the per hour cost because if I did, it would make no sense at all and I would get mad and sell my baby.

The "three F's" my friend are always true........ but I bet you have a wife too. 

[milotron]

Another Canadian contribution....my 262 is about $290CDN an hour assuming 80 hours a year, including prop/engine funds. The first couple of years are more for maintenance catch up and personalization/fitout, but should stabilize.

@Ozz I think your insurance number is low. I am $3500 CDN a year.

Oxygen is way high. Not many mountains to go over in the east...

Others costs seem about right, or conservative.

Adding in the opportunity costs will skew this, but is a reasonable way to make this decision, so long as you are considering the time/value savings of not taking airlines or rental schedule time costs in the alternative.

 

 

[Hank]

As I've stated many times, there are fixed costs related to owning an airplane, and there are operating costs.

Hangar, insurance, annual, GPS databases, pitot static inspection, aircraft & ELT batteries, etc., stay the same whether your flight time is zero or 1000 hours a year. This is the COST TO OWN your plane.

Things that vary directly with hours flown are the OPERATING COSTS of your plane:  fuel, oil, oil changes, tie down fees away from home, even tires and tubes, etc. These are what I use to figure what my hourly flying costs are.

If you add in the Fixed Costs, then your "operating expenses" will change significantly if your flight hours change. Using your method, your 160th flight hour will cost about half of your 80th flight hour, and we all know that isn't so . . . .

[anthonydesmet]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I agree.  This thread is depressing.  Rookie mistake.  Never add up the costs!  

Aree....if there was a way to quantify the fact my wife has never gone through TSA for travel since 2014 and we take our dogs everywhere across this great country it would definitely offset the result in my cost per hour spreadsheet. 

[Ozz]

@anthonydesmet Skipping TSA is definitely a huge win, some might say priceless.

@milotron Thanks for the correction on insurance just got of the phone with a broker and it will probably end up being between C$3,500 - $4,500.

@Zane Williams @anthonydesmet Thanks for the insight on the overhaul cost, probably best to budget for $85k and hope for the best.

@carusoam Thanks for all the advice. Was thinking about the 252 or Encore, think I don't want to deal with the issues that I have read about with the 231. Also, I think the economy of the TSIO-360 is better than the conversions. Put together the attached spreadsheet as it may help someone else going through the same process. Pulled most of the numbers from POH's I found online so more as directional guidance than anything definitive. @anthonydesmet Your right the M20J, will be a negligible difference in terms of speed on my usual trip to Montreal.

P.S. @carusoam I did have a quick look to see if there were any hanger homes remotely within the Toronto area