1965 M20C Project Help Needed

[AKRAY]

Greeting from KZPH Florida.  I purchased a 1965 M20C that is disassembled partially and my goal is to make it airworthy.  The log books show the engine has not been operational since 01/13/2007.  The engine has had only one overhaul since new by Triad Aviation, TSMO is 1113.37.  Last annual was 01/09/2008 with compression recorded as 1)72, 2)72, 3)73, 4)74. 

I was told by an old-time pilot to have the engine borescope for corrosion, if ok, do a compression test, if good then oil change and fire it up.  I like to know how sound this advice is.  I am thinking disassembly & inspect innards for corrosion, if ok, then reassemble having the cylinders and accessories overhauled for return to service.  Your thoughts please.

[RLCarter]

Lycomings don’t do well sitting, pulling 2 cylinders (same side) allows you to see the cam & lifters which is what generally goes south when sitting dormant. Pre-oiling any engine that has sat that long is a must before starting. A full disassemble and inspection would be best. Keep us posted on your progress, we like seeing Mooneys coming back to life.

[Guest]

I don’t think I count as an “old timer” yet, but I would not start the engine without doing some basics first.  Drain the oil do the filter and screen, connect an oil pressure pot to the front right oil gallery plug and pressurize the oil system, remove the spark plugs and spray some oil into the cylinders, in fact drown them if you can, turn the engine over by hand to coat the cylinder walls, once the oil drains out the lower spark plug holes install the spark plugs and start the engine.

Remember that the camshaft, lifter and crankshaft bearings, accessory section gears have sat dry for all these years.

Clarence

[AKRAY]

Thank you all for your input.  I spoke with a Mooney A&P and he recommended pulling a cylinder if no corrosion found then top and accessories overhaul.  If the worst is found an overhaul is needed.  The inspections are schedule for Monday the 19^th of July.

I’m naming my new bird “MO MOONEY$” in honor of my late pet cat (Molasses) and soon to be light wallet.

[Raptor05121]

Did he say why he recommends a top overhaul? That seems like an expensive knee-jerk reaction to sitting considering Lycoming's weakness is the bottom-end, not the top-end.

 

[chriscalandro]

If the bottom end is good, the top probably is as well. 

[LevelWing]

Purely anecdotal (and certainly not meant to be construed as advice, mechanical or otherwise), but my Mooney sat for 5 years until last year. When I arrived to pick her up, she cranked right up and has had no issues since. It was also hangared in the dry southwest which probably helped preserve the engine and components more so than in humid Florida. I also had my mechanic periodically checking on it but it didn't start up for the 5 years that it sat.

Good luck with yours. I hope you're able to get it restored and enjoy flying her.

[EricJ]

18 hours ago, AKRAY said:

Thank you all for your input.  I spoke with a Mooney A&P and he recommended pulling a cylinder if no corrosion found then top and accessories overhaul.  If the worst is found an overhaul is needed.  The inspections are schedule for Monday the 19^th of July.

I’m naming my new bird “MO MOONEY$” in honor of my late pet cat (Molasses) and soon to be light wallet.

That could be an awful lot of unnecessary work and is fairly intrusive.    I think the advice you got initially that you asked about and the advice from M20Doc are good.   i.e., inspect the cylinders with a borescope, make sure it is pre-lubed with fresh oil, get it running and go from there.    The usual wear that people are afraid of from sitting a long time is cam wear, and that's gradual and you'll be able to detect it over a long time.   Pulling a cylinder won't prevent that, either.

So I'd inspect (no pulling cylinders unless the borescope and compression checks indicate it is necessary), lube it, and get it running.    By then you should have an idea whether anything intrusive is necessary or not.

[AKRAY]

Hello all, thank you for your insight and input.  Here is where I stand with the plane at present.  Two cylinders were removed and cancer was found on the cam and tappets, significant corrosion.  The Manager of Zephyr engines (KZPH) inspected and said he estimates the engine repair cost at $12,000.  That is unless the opening of the case reveals otherwise.  He also paid a compliment for pulling the cylinders. The cylinders pulled are in ideal condition with no corrosion.  While the engine is being repaired the airframe will be put back together.  It is estimated that the restoration including repairs, reassembly, paint and new interior etc. will lighten my wallet some 60K when it’s all over and flying.  This is my first restoration project.  It has been an eye-opening experience thus far.  I am open to more advise and input regarding the task at hand.  Again, THANK YOU!

[carusoam]

Take a look at the options…

Repair vs. OH…

What is the goal of you and your project?

 

Take a look at the timing…

If your project is years away from flying…

Schedule your engine to be ready at the same time…

 

Try to avoid learning the same lesson twice…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[AKRAY]

Carusoam, thank you for your reply.  I purchased a project that was started back in 2008.  The owner due to health was not able to finish.  It is my intent to have this Mooney flying by November 2021.  I have ruled the overhaul out.  The engine is heathy and not worn out.  An Inspect, Repair as Necessary (IRAN) with new cam and tappets will provide me with an airworthy engine for many years to come.  The tree things that every aircraft needs is $, $$ & more $$,$$$!

[LevelWing]

1 minute ago, AKRAY said:

Carusoam, thank you for your reply.  I purchased a project that was started back in 2008.  The owner due to health was not able to finish.  It is my intent to have this Mooney flying by November 2021.  I have ruled the overhaul out.  The engine is heathy and not worn out.  An Inspect, Repair as Necessary (IRAN) with new cam and tappets will provide me with an airworthy engine for many years to come.  The tree things that every aircraft needs is $, $$ & more $$,$$$!

Take pictures of the progress along the way if you can. Post them here as well. It's always great seeing the older fleet continue flying and that there are people out there willing to spend the money to do it.

[AKRAY]

LevelWing, thank you for the encouragement.  I sure will document the progress.  When its all done I can fly over to for you to see.    

[Yetti]

Call PHT hoses in Tulsa and get a set of brown fancy hoses

[Guest]

On 8/1/2021 at 8:23 AM, AKRAY said:

Hello all, thank you for your insight and input.  Here is where I stand with the plane at present.  Two cylinders were removed and cancer was found on the cam and tappets, significant corrosion.  The Manager of Zephyr engines (KZPH) inspected and said he estimates the engine repair cost at $12,000.  That is unless the opening of the case reveals otherwise.  He also paid a compliment for pulling the cylinders. The cylinders pulled are in ideal condition with no corrosion.  While the engine is being repaired the airframe will be put back together.  It is estimated that the restoration including repairs, reassembly, paint and new interior etc. will lighten my wallet some 60K when it’s all over and flying.  This is my first restoration project.  It has been an eye-opening experience thus far.  I am open to more advise and input regarding the task at hand.  Again, THANK YOU!

You are certainly on the right airport for quality engine work.  Make sure that they use Lycoming DLC lifters in the repair.

Clarence

[Mkruger2021]

On 8/1/2021 at 5:23 AM, AKRAY said:

Hello all, thank you for your insight and input.  Here is where I stand with the plane at present.  Two cylinders were removed and cancer was found on the cam and tappets, significant corrosion.  The Manager of Zephyr engines (KZPH) inspected and said he estimates the engine repair cost at $12,000.  That is unless the opening of the case reveals otherwise.  He also paid a compliment for pulling the cylinders. The cylinders pulled are in ideal condition with no corrosion.  While the engine is being repaired the airframe will be put back together.  It is estimated that the restoration including repairs, reassembly, paint and new interior etc. will lighten my wallet some 60K when it’s all over and flying.  This is my first restoration project.  It has been an eye-opening experience thus far.  I am open to more advise and input regarding the task at hand.  Again, THANK YOU!

While that is a reputable shop, you are not too far off from the price of an overhaul all together.....I would run the numbers!

MK

[AKRAY]

Mkruger2021, The overhaul estimate given was $30,000.  The Repair will be sufficient as most engines can run well past TBO recommendations.  My last bird a 1974 B19 sport was flying well past 2650 hours before I sold it.  Moreover I do not wish to overspend past the potential market value of the plane should I choose to sell it in the future.  Besides the engine, the airframe including tires and avionics, paint and interior all need money.  One does have to set a limit.

[AKRAY]

15 hours ago, Yetti said:

Call PHT hoses in Tulsa and get a set of brown fancy hoses

Thanks I'll look into it.

[AKRAY]

14 hours ago, M20Doc said:

You are certainly on the right airport for quality engine work.  Make sure that they use Lycoming DLC lifters in the repair.

Clarence

thank you I'll ask about it. 

[steingar]

Good luck on your project.  I'd not worry about getting upside down, sounds like you already have.  Only way to not do so is to be an A&P yourself. One good thing about a restoration, you can make it your own.  The bad thing is you really need to keep it awhile after you do that.

 

[Niko182]

6 hours ago, AKRAY said:

Moreover I do not wish to overspend past the potential market value of the plane should I choose to sell it in the future.

If this is your goal, realistically you fighting an uphill battle. Realitically youll spend more than the aircraft is worth making it airworthy again. If you dont want to spend more money than an aircraft is worth, buy a vans aircraft. Build it up and itll be worth more than you payed for.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Niko182

[AKRAY]

5 hours ago, steingar said:

Good luck on your project.  I'd not worry about getting upside down, sounds like you already have.  Only way to not do so is to be an A&P yourself. One good thing about a restoration, you can make it your own.  The bad thing is you really need to keep it awhile after you do that.

 

Time will tell, I do plan on keeping it a while.

[AKRAY]

IO-360 is being overhauled at Zephyr engines (KZP) now.  it is $$$$$$$$$ that makes them fly.

[carusoam]

15 hours ago, AKRAY said:

IO-360 is being overhauled at Zephyr engines (KZP) now.  it is $$$$$$$$$ that makes them fly.

Are you sure its an IO-360?

M20Cs typically come with O-360s…. 
 

The carburetor and carb heat system are the usual give away…

The IO360 typically has a spider and four shiny fuel lines feeding fuel injectors on top… (for comparison)

If you have an IO360, you want to include that in your avatar info… for future conversation info…

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

IO-360 is being overhauled at Zephyr engines (KZP) now.  it is $$$$$$$$$ that makes them fly.

Above you said you ruled that out, what changed your mind?