bad landings

[Josue]

I just got a M20E. on the ferry trip i did 3 landings.all landing the M20E wanted to o left. The cfi flew the last leg. he is an over 30,000 hrs pilot. The plane did the same to him.

 

What am I doing wrong on the landings?

[bradp]

Am I understanding that the plane wanted to track left after touching down or does the plane want to roll or yaw left in flight?

[Josue]

7 minutes ago, bradp said:

Am I understanding that the plane wanted to track left after touching down or does the plane want to roll or yaw left in flight?

track left.  I landed at the 80 mph. touch on c/l. kept drifting(tracking) left applied rt yoke and ridder and in recentered on the runway.

[Joshua Blackh4t]

If its any consolation, I'm a 500 hour pilot who bought an M20E a few months ago and it took a while to learn.

There will be people here who know better than me, but i found that if you treat every landing as a rough air landing and work it the whole way down, it can work well. 

Often add power and let the plane settle slowly down. 

The other thing it get the flaps up ASAP when you land. No braking until flaps up. I know a guy who blew 2 tyres by braking too soon.

You'll get there, just be active the whole way down. 

 

Also, i got caught out at first with crosswinds and not straightening the rudder in time. The nose touches pretty soon, so be ready for it. 

 

Hope that helps

[N9405V]

Could be the nose gear bushing is worn and needs to be replaced. That is a classic symptom.


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[Hank]

Try landing slower. 80 is too fast. Ideally, when the wind isn't too gusty, you should hear the stall horn just before touchdown. You are flying the plane into the runway.

I raise my flaps after the nose wheel comes down, and keep feet off the brakes until below 50 mph. This has worked well for me ar the 3000' obstructed field that I based at for my first 7 years, and at the nice 3200' field I moved to. Now I'm spoiled with 5000', and if I'm on speed and on glideslope, the midfield exit is easy to make with light braking.

[A64Pilot]

28 minutes ago, N9405V said:

Could be the nose gear bushing is worn and needs to be replaced. That is a classic symptom.


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That’s what I’m thinking too. raise the nose with the nose wheel free, excessive play will be apparent, I know because mine has excessive play.

If not then the steering needs adjustment meaning rudder and nose wheel are not coincident  

[Guest]

Are we describing the 8 second ride, or failure to use feet to steer the plane on roll out?  

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/technical_documents/service_bulletins/sbm20-202.pdf

Clarence

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Josue said:

track left.  I landed at the 80 mph. touch on c/l. kept drifting(tracking) left applied rt yoke and ridder and in recentered on the runway.

Steer on rollout with the rudder, not the yoke. Raise the upwind aileron to keep the wing from being lifted. Raise flaps. Let speed bleed off before braking.

Raising flaps on rollout works well for me, but I can hold the throttle to idle and reach the flap switch with a finger.

[Skates97]

Unless it is gusty you shouldn't have to add/remove power on final. In an E you should be trimmed so you are at 80 mph hands off. As Hank said, if you are touching down at 80 mph you are flying it on and too fast. You should be able to pull power when you have thru runway made, flare out, and touch down smoothly. It will take practice. 

You should also be able to hold the nose off if you aren't releasing pressure on the yoke when you touch down, of course if you are touching down at 80 mph and trying to hold the nose off you will balloon back up. When I was first flying my Mooney (with about 60 total hours) I would let the nose drop right after the mains touched. Practice trying to hold the nose off, it will help improve your landings. 

You can retract flaps after touching down, but it is not necessary. Some say don't touch anything until you exit the runway others retract flaps. I retract mine on roll out, but mistaking the flap lever with the Johnson Bar is not going to happen. You can also brake with flaps still down, just be gentle on the brakes to keep from putting flat spots on your tires. Use aerodynamic braking first, bringing the yoke all the way back and that will bleed off speed. 

[DCarlton]

I don't pay a lot of attention to it after so many years; I just fly it; but my '67F tends to track left too.  The one thing I do know well, is I have to be very careful with the rudder pedals on roll out.  I had it get really twitchy with me once on a gusty crosswind landing.  Almost went in the weeds in NM when I first bought the plane. 

[Josue]

3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Unless it is gusty you shouldn't have to add/remove power on final. In an E you should be trimmed so you are at 80 mph hands off. As Hank said, if you are touching down at 80 mph you are flying it on and too fast. You should be able to pull power when you have thru runway made, flare out, and touch down smoothly. It will take practice. 

You should also be able to hold the nose off if you aren't releasing pressure on the yoke when you touch down, of course if you are touching down at 80 mph and trying to hold the nose off you will balloon back up. When I was first flying my Mooney (with about 60 total hours) I would let the nose drop right after the mains touched. Practice trying to hold the nose off, it will help improve your landings. 

You can retract flaps after touching down, but it is not necessary. Some say don't touch anything until you exit the runway others retract flaps. I retract mine on roll out, but mistaking the flap lever with the Johnson Bar is not going to happen. You can also brake with flaps still down, just be gentle on the brakes to keep from putting flat spots on your tires. Use aerodynamic braking first, bringing the yoke all the way back and that will bleed off speed. 

thats helpful. The cfi the ferried with me. wanted 80mph with power all the way to flair at 10 ft of the runway.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, N9405V said:

Could be the nose gear bushing is worn and needs to be replaced. That is a classic symptom.


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Sure sounds like some kind of wheel issue rather than a flight control issue once you exclude a mis-rigged rudder (which I'd expect to be noticeable in flight) or a crosswind not being accounted for on rollout.

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, Josue said:

thats helpful. The cfi the ferried with me. wanted 80mph with power all the way to flair at 10 ft of the runway.

You have done well...

Ferry flight is over...

First order of business tomorrow...

Find Mooney specific expertise to determine if you have plane issues or knowledge issues...

It isn’t normal to have a Mooney track one way or the other after landing...

It isn’t normal to land with power at 80mph....   these are defensive maneuvers that get a ferry pilot pas the pay point...

Worn parts can give the classic 8 second ride mentioned above...

So can using improper speeds...

Anyone can have a bad day, even in the best Mooney...

Anyone can kill a pair of tires... by hitting the breaks lightly...  at the wrong speed... in any plane... using any tire...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Josue]

well one thing i am glad I did is join this group. It been supportive and instructional.

 

Thankyou.

[Yetti]

did you check the tire pressures?

Edited May 30, 2021 by Yetti

[Bartman]

I had similar experiences, but I also had what I would describe as “chatter” in the pedals on rollout. Have your mechanic jack the plane and check the nose gear truss. Mine had worn out parts including the steering horn. We removed the nose gear truss and steering horn and sent to LASAR. They rebuilt the truss, installed new shock discs and bushings and steering stops, and upgraded the steering horn. My mechanic was very happy with their service and I have a nose steering that acts like new. 
 

Also if you are new  to Mooney, please be aware of the turn restriction of about 15 degrees left and right and damage that can happen when linemen use a powered tug to move the aircraft.
 

https://lasar.com/

[Skates97]

9 hours ago, Josue said:

thats helpful. The cfi the ferried with me. wanted 80mph with power all the way to flair at 10 ft of the runway.

Go to @donkaye's website linked below and spend the $25 for his DVD and watch it a few times, then review it as needed. It is worth your money and time. 

https://donkaye.com/landing-video

[hubcap]

3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Go to @donkaye's website linked below and spend the $25 for his DVD and watch it a few times, then review it as needed. It is worth your money and time. 

https://donkaye.com/landing-video

I definitely recommend the video but if you don't have $25 the best advice is to reduce your speed. Too much speed is a huge NO NO in a Mooney when landing. 

[KLRDMD]

13 hours ago, Josue said:

The cfi the ferried with me. wanted 80mph with power all the way to flair at 10 ft of the runway.

As has been mentioned many, many times, please get a Mooney specific instructor for your transition training. This guy isn't the one you should be using. The next guy that trains you (the correct way hopefully) now has to deal with the Law of Primacy and undoing the things you've been taught incorrectly. It makes our jobs as CFIs so much more difficult. It is easier faster, and CHEAPER to just do it right the first time.

[ArtVandelay]

BTW, 80 mph is what the J manual calls for at max gross weight, it’s 71 knots.

 

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

BTW, 80 mph is what the J manual calls for at max gross weight, it’s 71 knots.

 

The OP has an E, max gross = 2575, compared to your J at either 2740 or 2900 lb. In my C (same plane as the E, different engjne) my target is 85 mph on Final, slowing to "over the fence speed" of 75 mph minus 5 mph for every 300 lb below gross for that landing.

Every knot too fast in the flare is an extra 100' of float. Two souls, half tanks, no bags that is often 70 mph target, so 80mph is either 1000' extra float or forcing the plane down, or a level flown-onto-the-runway landing.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Hank said:

The OP has an E, max gross = 2575, compared to your J at either 2740 or 2900 lb. In my C (same plane as the E, different engjne) my target is 85 mph on Final, slowing to "over the fence speed" of 75 mph minus 5 mph for every 300 lb below gross for that landing.

Every knot too fast in the flare is an extra 100' of float. Two souls, half tanks, no bags that is often 70 mph target, so 80mph is either 1000' extra float or forcing the plane down, or a level flown-onto-the-runway landing.

Or floating down the runway wondering why it won’t steer properly.

Clarence 

[Mooneymite]

To me, it sounds like there may be bad nose gear geometry as @M20Doc has referred to.

Checking the geometry is super simple even if applying the fix may not be.  Take a look at M20-202, jack up the plane, drop a plumb.  If the geometry is correct, you can look elsewhere, if the geometry isn't right, pilot technique and speed adjustments will not fix the root cause.

[Alan Fox]

The rudder was probably rigged without travel boards ,   Also you are lamding too fast ,