Is a Mooney right for my mission? If so, which one?

[Pogamassing]

Greetings everyone. This is my first post, so I apologize if this has been a topic that has been beaten to death.

I recently returned to flying after a 10 year hiatus. I am instrument rated with about 550 hours of time. 400 hours of that time was in a Diamond DA-40 I owned back when I was flying regularly. 

I am looking for an aircraft that can safely transport my wife and our two young children from Phoenix, AZ primarily to destinations across the West and Southwest (including around and over the Rockies and Sierra) ranging from 250 to 500 nm. I weigh about 180 lbs, wife is about 140 lbs, kids combined are under 100 lbs. We'd like the capability of carrying luggage, but nothing crazy. 

Initial plans are to fly VFR, but I want an IFR capable aircraft. My wife is not a pilot. 

My budget is $250K, give or take 50K either way. I am very early in my search, but am considering the following aircraft. 

Cessna 182T

Cessna 310 (CAPX vs OPX makes this very appealing to me)

Cirrus SR22 

Cessna 210 is appealing as well, but with the kids being small I don't know if I need that kind of capacity. 

And honestly, I don't know a ton about Mooney aircraft. However, about 15 years ago I did do a hard IFR flight from Manhattan Kansas to Lake of the Ozarks in a 1965 Mooney M20C with a Johnson Bar! 

Any thoughts, comments, etc are much appreciated. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Pogamassing

[MIm20c]

Probably a nice F, J, or K for 100-150ish would work well for your mission, 250 puts you in a nice bravo or ovation. It’s seems like everyone has 150-250k ready to spend right now so you’ll have a lot of competition for the nice ones. Good luck!

[RobertGary1]

I do that mission with my F very well. Cessna's offer more cabin room but are much slower and thirstier. You'll be making more fuel stops in a Cessna.

 

-Robert

[Pogamassing]

Thanks Mlm20C & RobertGary1. Anyone have a good experience with a particular broker? 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Pogamassing

[smwash02]

Just now, Pogamassing said:

Thanks Mlm20C & RobertGary1. Anyone have a good experience with a particular broker? 

Jimmy Garrison of GMax Aircraft, formerly All American, is who you'll want to talk to.

PHONE: (830) 438-4081
EMAIL: JIMMY@ALLAMERICANAIRCRAFT.COM

[rbridges]

My friend has an SR22 G3. It's nice but not blessed with useful load. Prior to that, he had a 210 which was like a SUV. the mooney will either outrun or use less fuel than either, but you do compromise in other areas. 

BTW I have a '65 Mooney M20C with a johnson bar. 

[jwilcoxon78]

We have a J with the same profile, minus the Rockies stuff (we're in the SE)  I'm 165, wife is 135 and kids (with carseats) are about 100 in total.   64 gallons and the back full of luggage (gets bulky more than weighty).  Cut it down to 40 gallons and you've got 3 hrs endursance with IFR reserves.  Given you're altitude requirements, seems a K might be more in your arena though.  

[ToddCC22]

May I suggest a M20K 252 for your mission. It’s very capable and as @gsxrpilotis doing, when the motor comes up for rebuild, and the kids are getting larger, you can get the motor and landing gear upgraded to an Encore conversion and get another ~200# useful load. I bought mine as a fresh conversion from Maxwell Aviation with a useful load of just over 1100# and just flew a 600nm trip with my wife and teenage kids in 3:45 on 44 gal of 100ll. 

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, Pogamassing said:

My budget is $250K, give or take 50K either way. I am very early in my search, but am considering the following aircraft. 

Cessna 182T

Cessna 310 (CAPX vs OPX makes this very appealing to me)

Cirrus SR22 

Cessna 210 is appealing as well, but with the kids being small I don't know if I need that kind of capacity. 

Over the mountains, with my family = 310 from your list above. I've owned a few airplanes and the 310 will cost 50% more to operate than the 182 or 210 (look for many old posts of mine on this forum where I provide specific numbers). The cost of 'chute repacks, line cutters, etc. on the Cirrus makes it the same to operate as the 310 but on ½ to ¼ of the purchase price of the Cirrus for the 310. The "Q" model or earlier 310 will fit in the same hangar as the singles you mention. The "R" model 310 requires a larger hangar.

But this is a Mooney forum so expect most of the replies to suggest that for you.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Poga...

You have a great question...

With so many degrees of freedom...

You basically said you have a decent budget...

And intend to fly your family over mountains all the time...

Even I would be selecting the twin off your list if that was me doing the flying...

 

I don’t have a multi license...

I fly over mountains and harsh terrain some times

 

Did you mean to ask... help me select the most capable plane from my list to have my family survive flying over the mountains often?

 

You may have noticed the site name is MooneySpace...

So...

If you are looking for vast knowledge on speed and efficiency... you came to the right place...

If you can’t decide on high wing vs. twin...   

You may want to build a chart for yourself...  listing pros and cons for each model...

When you get to the Mooney... we can help you choose the best one...

Realistically, I choose the best one each time I fly...  

Share the answers you have come up with so far...

 

A parachute isn’t going to be a very good answer for being engine out deep in the mountains...

How often are you going to transitions such horrible places?

 

To start...  select a decent Long Body... for ease of research...

If you are going to be flying in the Flight Levels each week... Turbo is highly recommended...

That brings you to a manageable spot...   Bravo, Eagle, and Ovation...

If you want to extend your budget... go Acclaim!

If flying over the Mountains on a nice day each year is what you meant... the Ovation is really a nice fast plane...

Go FIKI!

Do tell... what does your plane need to do for you?  90% of the time....

Its not like you have to start over...   consider it like you have reached the next level... 

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[M20Curious]

Here’s what I know about kids (I have 3 and two are out of the house).  They grow... and quickly.  Your 100 lbs in the back seat will be 200... then 250... then 300 before you know it.  That could be 620lbs of flesh with no luggage.  Assuming you and your wife don’t put on a few ‘old age’ lbs.  With 40lbs each of luggage, you’re hitting 780 before fuel.  Given the traditional 850-950 useful load in a Mooney... maybe you get a touch over 1000 at your price point... you can put 37 gal of fuel on the plane (assuming you’re a lucky one with the 1000 lbs UL).  That might get you your 250 miles but not your 500 miles.

I’m new here too so I haven’t been indoctrinated with the M20 cool aide, yet.  So that’s the honest truth IMO.  If you’re OK selling and upping your useful load in a new plane in a few years, then you can’t beat the efficiency and speed at the price point of the Mooney.

[carusoam]

Nice points Curious..!

Typical Mooney Highlights...

 

Single engine...

1) Speed

2) Efficiency

3) 1k# UL... Often, but make sure of the individual plane being considered...

4) Safety

5) Choice of Turbo or NA.... and extra HP.

6) options...  AC, FIKI, built in O2...

PP thoughts only... not selling my pilot perfect plane.... yet.

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

The best useful load Mooneys are the 252 Encores and the Eagles. You should be able to get around 1100 lbs useful load with either of those. The Encore will have a little bit better legs as its better on fuel... but... that is typically at O2 altitudes and you might not want that with little kids. If that's the case, the Eagle might be your best bet for a Mooney.

But I'm with @KLRDMD. If you can swing a twin, or even an A36, you'd probably be happier. I'm not as concerned about the kids growing up, you can always get a different plane down the road. But right here right now, young kids typically come with extra baggage, and also require care/food/drinks/entertainment in flight and mom needs to be able to move around. 

Flying a Mooney is like driving a 911 on the German Autobahn. It's an awesome experience, but mostly for people who are strapped in and focused on the experience of the speed, handling, efficiency, etc. It's very unlike a road trip with kids in a Suburban with individual entertainment, snacks, drinks, frequent stops, and getting up to switch seats, fight with your sibling, or check on the dog in the back.

Get the 310 or an A36 now. When the kids have left home, you and the Mrs will be ready for a Mooney to get you around the country quickly and efficiently to visit the grandkids.

[KLRDMD]

11 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Get the 310 or an A36 now. When the kids have left home, you and the Mrs will be ready for a Mooney to get you around the country quickly and efficiently to visit the grandkids.

An awesome 310 just came on the market a couple of hours ago. I predict it will sell within 24 hours.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=194481

[gsxrpilot]

39 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

An awesome 310 just came on the market a couple of hours ago. I predict it will sell within 24 hours.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=194481

Damn! That is tempting.

[hammdo]

310 like that - I’d go right for it!

-Don

[carusoam]

If you had a really big hangar.... for two planes....

The CapEx was doable... the OpEx must be killer...

Its a twin forever-plane... under 100amus...

Best regards,

-a-

[Pogamassing]

Thank you everyone for the replies. 

As I consider usage more, here's the most realistic use of the plane. 

We get out of AZ a lot in the summer - usually to Utah, Colorado or California. This summer we will be in Park City for the most of the summer. What will realistically happen is that we'll drive up as a family with the SUV loaded to the hilt. I'll fly home commercial SLC to PHX after a week or so to check in at the office for a day or two. If I have a plane, I'll fly back solo. Another one or two round trips by me solo (or with the family and a very light baggage load) before I leave the plane in AZ, fly back commercial PHX to Utah and drive with the family home. Most of our family trips would probably be a variation of this in the future as well, even if I did have a plane. 

There will be business use as well. Pre COVID, I spent about 30 days a year traveling for work. Usually California and Colorado. Things changed in 2020, but before my meetings transitioned to ZOOM there were lots of flights to Sacramento and Denver. I believe that we are in the 8th or 9th inning of this pandemic, and I expect to hit the road again soon. If I could cover that distance safely and efficiently in my own aircraft (both north of 500 nm) that would be a game changer. Kids and wife would not be on those trips. 

So I really don't need the flying SUV..... 

A 310 intrigues me. And a buddy who has an SR22 absolutely refuses to fly and night or with his family in anything but the SR22 or a twin due the the chute or the redundant engine. But as I consider the actually flying, it's a pretty straight shot up to Utah over mostly desert with not too much hard mountain flying. Empty desert, yes. But hardly the Alaskan wilderness or an ocean crossing. The flight to Denver is trickier, but I'm not going to hop directly over the San Juans even if I could. So perhaps the 310 is a sledgehammer where none is needed? 

And it should be noted I don't have my multi engine rating yet. It's a Q2 goal to complete. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Pogamassing

[gsxrpilot]

Well, now you're talking about the perfect mission for my 252 Encore. It will carry the weight when you do want to take the family. But for solo trips its a real game changer. The turbo and built in O2 give a ceiling of FL280 which gives you lots of options in the mountains. And with full fuel tanks, you'll have 1000 mile range with reserves. Nothing says speed quite like skipping a fuel stop. We fly in and out of Denver and don't even know the mountains are there. Even the San Juans are no worry when the peaks are 10,000 ft below.

For a solo, go places airplane, the only way you'll beat it is with something pressurized.

[KB4]

With M20 supply at an all time low, you will get more bang for ur buck in a SR22 with AC FIKi ect 

I only have time in a 20, and really liked it but too slow.  The welded gear will save you enough on insurance for the CAPS repack so no extra maintenance cost there.  

[aviatoreb]

11 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

An awesome 310 just came on the market a couple of hours ago. I predict it will sell within 24 hours.

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=194481

That's the nicest looking 310 I've ever seen. And a 310 is such a classic light twin.

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, KB4 said:

With M20 supply at an all time low, you will get more bang for ur buck in a SR22 with AC FIKi ect 

I only have time in a 20, and really liked it but too slow.  The welded gear will save you enough on insurance for the CAPS repack so no extra maintenance cost there.  

Are Cirrus really lower insurance?  Last I checked - many years ago - the insurance was higher and in fact my agent didn't even want to quote me but said she would because there was a track record.

I am surprised - you are right!  I have never seen so few M20's for sale!

[ArtVandelay]

Are Cirrus really lower insurance?  Last I checked - many years ago - the insurance was higher and in fact my agent didn't even want to quote me but said she would because there was a track record.
I am surprised - you are right!  I have never seen so few M20's for sale!

As of 2 years ago:
$2,624 annual premium for $245,000 Cirrus, obviously insurance has gone up since then.

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

As of 2 years ago:
$2,624 annual premium for $245,000 Cirrus, obviously insurance has gone up since then.

That number as a stand alone isn't helping since as you said, insurance has changed, and I don't know what you would be quoted for a same priced hull value M20.  Sublimits, etc?  It sounds reasonable though.   Mine was ~2k for 175k hull value, but for smooth 1M.  Too many variables to compare directly. 

[N231BN]

Pull out an IFR chart and look at the MEA's on those routes. Even a NA twin is questionable in certain areas when flying IFR due to SE service ceiling(except Colemill P2 Baron).

A reasonable route to Denver is via ABQ which adds 120nm but has friendly terrain.

I agree with Paul, a 252 would be great for the mission if you don't have a hard schedule to follow.