Is it a sin to buy a Cirrus?

[Tim Jodice]

26 minutes ago, Hank said:

Looks to me like it's 26K to upgrade a Bo from inadvertent to FIKI, and 72K to install from nothing on a Mooney (but is it FIKI or not? What is "basic ice protection"?).

I think most people consider inadvertent systems "basic ice protection".

It varies a lot from one manufacturer to another. A Cirrus made big obvious improvements when they went FIKI. 

 

[M016576]

24 minutes ago, Tim Jodice said:

$72,000 is a new FIKI system installed on a Mooney. 

Bonanzas may be different but to turn a inadvertent system to a FIKI on a Mooney requires removing the existing system and replacing everything.

AFAIK (which, admittedly, isn’t much...) The only difference is a second pump and where the pressure sensing (and hence hoses) are located.  The panels, spray bar, prop slinger and proportioning units are all the same between the two.  Maybe I’m missing something?

[NJMac]

Let's invite @CAV Ice Protection@CAV Ice to the party to explain more. 

[MIm20c]

The Mooney panels are different between the FIKI and inadvertent. It would not be cost effective to upgrade units. Not sure about the bonanza. However, a lot of the desirable 36’s have tip tanks et al that would disqualify it anyway. 
 

[N231BN]

9 hours ago, M016576 said:

AFAIK (which, admittedly, isn’t much...) The only difference is a second pump and where the pressure sensing (and hence hoses) are located.  The panels, spray bar, prop slinger and proportioning units are all the same between the two.  Maybe I’m missing something?

The following items would need to be installed on a Bonanza assuming it has the newer (early 90's) titanium panels:

Both main pumps

Dual windshield pumps

TKS filters

Dual solenoids

LH mid wing panel

Heated stall vane

Control panel

Furthermore, the aircraft needs to have the B&C Standby Alternator installed. That is not included in the 26k as the aircraft we were discussing already has it. Frankly, the cost is about what I expected it to be and could easily add that much value to the airplane.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

The Mooney panels are different between the FIKI and inadvertent. It would not be cost effective to upgrade units. Not sure about the bonanza. However, a lot of the desirable 36’s have tip tanks et al that would disqualify it anyway. 
 

That's what I hear. They look the same though to the untrained eye.  Same coverage. Unlike say on the Cirrus where the no fiki version has noticeably less wing coverage.

It costs more on a Mooney to "convert" a not fiki but tks airplane to a tks airplane since it involves first removing the old system.  So entirely impractical.

[CAV Ice]

The no-hazard system and FIKI system for both Mooney and Bonanza are completely different.  The FIKI systems use different porous panels, dual windshield pumps, dual solenoid valves, dual metering pumps (different output than the no-hazard system), different wiring bundles, added heated stall warning, different control panel, dual alternator requirement, different prop slinger ring (depending on engine and prop), different proportioning units (different output to the panels). 

[redcatcher27]

If you have the money lying around to buy a cirrus, you have enough to buy a really nice mooney. 

[Tim Jodice]

9 minutes ago, CAV Ice said:

The no-hazard system and FIKI system for both Mooney and Bonanza are completely different.  The FIKI systems use different porous panels, dual windshield pumps, dual solenoid valves, dual metering pumps (different output than the no-hazard system), different wiring bundles, added heated stall warning, different control panel, dual alternator requirement, different prop slinger ring (depending on engine and prop), different proportioning units (different output to the panels). 

It can't be much different. The website shows only 0.3 gallon more in the FIKI system but the same 2.5 hour run time.

https://www.cav-systems.com/retrofit/mooney-m20/

 

https://www.cav-systems.com/retrofit/mooney-m20-fiki/

[CAV Ice]

@Tim Jodice output of the main metering pumps and calibration of the proportioning units is based on panel design (older steel or riveted panels as compared to newer titanium and laser welded panels), line length for the installation and panel length.  Nothing to do with fluid quantity. 

[Tim Jodice]

13 minutes ago, CAV Ice said:

@Tim Jodice output of the main metering pumps and calibration of the proportioning units is based on panel design (older steel or riveted panels as compared to newer titanium and laser welded panels), line length for the installation and panel length.  Nothing to do with fluid quantity. 

Thank you for the clarification. I think I speak for others on MooneySpace thank you for being so active answering questions.

FIKI or not your systems are awesome. 

[SalMCFI]

On 3/28/2021 at 6:15 PM, Hank said:

To me, they advertise a glam lifestyle that doesn't attract me, and they emphasize the chute over the airplane and it's flying characteristics. 

All the chatter about Cirri is takeoff, turn on auto pilot, watch a movie, and disconnect auto pilot on final to land. No thanks.

Actually that's not even slightly true.  I've owned an SR20 and SR22, and a 1982 201J.  They don't "emphasize" the chute, they talk about it as a safety item.  Just like Mooney "emphasized" the roll cage.   

It's also not true that it's about turn on AP, blah blah blah.  That's typical ignorant talk.  I loved my Mooney, but the Cirrus is a different traveling machine and once you fly one, at night over the mountains, with a CHUTE you'll understand.  I had to sell my 22 to my partner last year and looking for another AC, and a Mooney is in the picture, but so funny the Cirrus ignorance when folks just don't know.  I mean, they have only sold 8000 in the last 20 years, and Mooney couldn't make 10 4 years ago.

[Hank]

Just now, SalMCFI said:

I mean, they have only sold 8000 in the last 20 years, and Mooney couldn't make 10 4 years ago.

Please let Porsche and Ferrari know they should shut down because GM sold more Chevy Cruzes than they did their cars . . .   Because it must all boil down to who sells more, right?

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, SalMCFI said:

Actually that's not even slightly true.  I've owned an SR20 and SR22, and a 1982 201J.  They don't "emphasize" the chute, they talk about it as a safety item.  Just like Mooney "emphasized" the roll cage.   

It's also not true that it's about turn on AP, blah blah blah.  That's typical ignorant talk.  I loved my Mooney, but the Cirrus is a different traveling machine and once you fly one, at night over the mountains, with a CHUTE you'll understand.  I had to sell my 22 to my partner last year and looking for another AC, and a Mooney is in the picture, but so funny the Cirrus ignorance when folks just don't know.  I mean, they have only sold 8000 in the last 20 years, and Mooney couldn't make 10 4 years ago.

Welcome aboard Sal,

I think you are mistaken...

Let me get you hat for you...  

Best regards,

-a-

[N9201A]

Going to a Cirrus from a Mooney is like a second wife. You learn to appreciate both of them!
 

Sounds like an expensive lesson!

[GeeBee]

6 minutes ago, N9201A said:

Sounds like an expensive lesson!

Not really. My first wife had cancer. The most important thing is to not compare the two. You chose them for who they are. Airplanes are the same way. Usually when you talk to a pilot that has flown competitors, Cirrus and Mooney or Airbus and Boeing they will appreciate both designs. You really only run into zealots with people who have little to no experience in both.

 

[thinwing]

well op asked "is it a sin to by a cirris"on a Mooney fansite....now ask "is it a sin to buy a mooney"on a Cirris fansite

[NJMac]

14 hours ago, thinwing said:

well op asked "is it a sin to by a cirris"on a Mooney fansite....now ask "is it a sin to buy a mooney"on a Cirris fansite

Don't worry, I'm not flying a Cirrus nor do I intend to.  But an A36 looks imminent.  

[67 m20F chump]

Beech builds great aircraft.  I don’t understand why anyone would want to fly single engine in the ice.  For the price of a known ice single you are talking piper cheyenne money.  The useful load on optioned out A36 isn’t impressive.   My opinion only.

[GeeBee]

You can buy an early 2000's FIKI Ovation in the mid 200's with the attendant operating costs. A 40 year old Cheyenne I is about 350 to 400 and a single hot section is the same as a new IO-550 minimum and usually more. O/H is well into the price of an Ovation aquitsition. Lot of difference in money there. 

 

 

[NJMac]

4 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

  The useful load on optioned out A36 isn’t impressive.   My opinion only.

I've decided I'm looking for a 1979 or early 1980s A36.  With an IO-550 and tip tanks, it will have max gross of 4000 lbs and should see UL around 1500.  Unless my unknown future bird has TKS already when I buy it, I doubt I'll add it.  I've come to agree, my family really shouldn't be in IMC, especially if ice could be an issue.   Now to wait for that perfect plane. 

[Jerry Pressley]

I did not read all the posts so i may be commenting on something that has already been discussed.   buttt, A cirrus has a lot going for it if it never gets damaged.  If you dip a wingtip on a Mooney and get the wrinkle between the flap and aileron a repair is pretty well straight forward.  Remove th3e wing skin and do a normal spar repair and replace some stringers and replace the skin.  Back in the air in relatively short time.   

The last Cirrus we did had the similar wing tip touch the ground. It not only damages the wing but buckles the floorboard in the rear.. Cirrus charges thousands for the paperwork authorizing the repair.    and to do the repairs to the wing took months because of the extra time spent dealing with Cirrus.  Also the wheels and brakes are not big enough for the plane and most are familiar with the inspections and parts change necessary if you get on the brakes too hard.  

 

[LANCECASPER]

On 3/28/2021 at 4:49 PM, NJMac said:

One of my aviation mentors is pushing me into a Cirrus.  He had 2 mooney's and then 2 Cirrus's.  Being a 5 min flight from Steel also helps with any mx and annuals.   One I'm looking at has TKS and 1080 useful.  It's a pretty compelling value proposition IMO.

It's not a sin to buy a Cirrus. It's not even a sin to register it in your name. However it is a sin to take it out in the light of day where other people can see you getting in it and flying it.

Just kidding. Buy whatever you want. After owning a couple of Mooneys I got into a partnership on a Malibu Mirage and later a Meridian - they were great airplanes and had pros and cons when compared to a Mooney. When the Meridian partnership went South I came back, repented, and have owned Mooneys since then.

[aviatoreb]

Forgive me Al for I have sinned.  I have imagined impure thoughts with plastic aircraft-things.

[Ulysse]

On 3/28/2021 at 11:49 PM, NJMac said:

One I'm looking at has TKS and 1080 useful.  It's a pretty compelling value proposition IMO

Is the fixed landing gear also deiced with tks? Otherwise wouldn't it build ice, increasing weight rapidly?