Selling Experience

[V1VRV2]

1 hour ago, merlin said:

Right!  The main thing that keeps me from selling is the thought of buying again!

 

Even when buying goes smoothly it’s still quite a headache logistically, mentally, and financially!

[Jim Peace]

2 hours ago, V1VRV2 said:

Even when buying goes smoothly it’s still quite a headache logistically, mentally, and financially!

Correct...That is why I am not selling and stepping up...I can afford it but buying an airplane is the worst experience I have had......months of looking and sorting out the trash....I have found that you want to buy from a person that is stepping up to something more expensive.....everyone else not so much.....

 

[Ross Statham]

 There is very little advice I can add to the already excellent advice that has been given. One thing I think I would amplify is that when I’ve sold my planes in the past I have always ensured that I have detailed pictures and the logs, done my homework on price and told the story.

In several cases I had people call me up after having gone through the posting description, the photos and the logs at length (for two or three days I learned later) to say something like, “your information was really complete, and I only have a few more questions before we talk about details about moving forward.” 

Do your homework, take lots of photos, price it competitively (without giving the farm away) and tell the whole story.  Buyers will get a good flavor of both you and your bird.  So again- no new advice, just some amplification.

I upgraded from an F to a J.  Glad you’re planning to stay!!

[MikeOH]

8 minutes ago, Ross Statham said:

I upgraded from an F to a J.  Glad you’re planning to stay!!

As a happy F owner, I've got to ask:  What made trading up to a J worth all the hassle, and cost???

And, now you have that no-back spring to deal with!

[RobertGary1]

43 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

As a happy F owner, I've got to ask:  What made trading up to a J worth all the hassle, and cost???

And, now you have that no-back spring to deal with!

Clearly not in a state where you have to pay 10% of the new airplane to the state in use tax. That's a very expensive upgrade for maybe 10 knots.

-Robert

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

As a happy F owner, I've got to ask:  What made trading up to a J worth all the hassle, and cost???

And, now you have that no-back spring to deal with!

I’m gonna hijack this whole thing for a simple question, sorry... I have a ‘68F with electric gear installed at the factory right after it was born.  Do I have the no-back spring that I’ve read so much about or no?  I read all the expensive complaints, but never figured it out!

[MikeOH]

3 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m gonna hijack this whole thing for a simple question, sorry... I have a ‘68F with electric gear installed at the factory right after it was born.  Do I have the no-back spring that I’ve read so much about or no?  I read all the expensive complaints, but never figured it out!

I don't believe any of the F's, at least as they came from the factory, have them.  I think the change came with the J model; I'm going to go compare part numbers in the F and J parts manuals to confirm.

We do have that pesky two part gearbox inspection, however.  When they wear out most seem to replace with the lower stress/higher ratio gears, but gear cycle time gets longer.  I plan to replace with the original ratio as I like the quick cycle time and I figure if they make it 50 years like the originals, I don't really need the longer life of the 'low stress' ratio

[Ross Statham]

Great question about selling my F, and getting a J.  Here goes.

Several years ago I was living in Georgia and I sold my basically equipped F model and bought a Bonanza V-tail at a “great price.”  Or so I thought. After I bought that Bo, I discovered there were a lot of things about that plane that were not what I wanted, including several maintenance issues and ownership costs.  (I’ve discussed some of those in another post.)  As much as I like several features of the Bonanza, I kept wondering why I had “upgraded.”  A big maintenance issue reared it’s ugly head at annual, and it didn’t take a whole lotta reflection to figure it out, and I sold it.

After owning an F (and flying a G), I knew what I was looking for, and bought a nice J with great avionics, low engine time and a bud ugly paint job.  We had her painted like we wanted, and today we love the way she looks and the way she flies.  But I suspect that I would be just as happy if I’d kept the F, and had put a few bucks into an autopilot and a few other goodies.  

[Ragsf15e]

45 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I don't believe any of the F's, at least as they came from the factory, have them.  I think the change came with the J model; I'm going to go compare part numbers in the F and J parts manuals to confirm.

We do have that pesky two part gearbox inspection, however.  When they wear out most seem to replace with the lower stress/higher ratio gears, but gear cycle time gets longer.  I plan to replace with the original ratio as I like the quick cycle time and I figure if they make it 50 years like the originals, I don't really need the longer life of the 'low stress' ratio

Ha! Thanks.  I got the “better”, low stress/high ratio gears about 5 years ago and they were expensive!  I sure hope they last like the originals!  It still comes up fast, but it’s noticeable.

Yeah, the NBS thing, I probably should figure that out, but it’s one of those things I just haven’t got to yet...

Sorry about the hijack folks, carry on.

 

[carusoam]

Check out this inventory list...

If you see something you like...

Discuss trading in what you have...

Are you anywhere close to TX?

Do you want to be?

Essentially buying and selling planes are two separate, big, projects...

Cutting it down to one big project has value...

There can be some sales tax advantage with this as well... in NJ you have a set period of time to complete the sale/purchase... to avoid paying a huge sales tax burden...

I went about a year between selling the M20C, and getting the M20R...  that’s a hassle... the C had to go... and we were in the front of the Great Recession... and weren’t quite ready for the next plane...

Best regards,

-a-

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listings/for-sale/aircraft/13?dscompanyid=6946&dlr=1&settingscrmid=614667

[gsxrpilot]

My first Mooney was the first airplane I owned outright. It was purchased with a budget that I knew couldn't ruin me financially if it all went south. But I bought the best example I could find, thinking it'd be easier to get back out of, if I had to. It all worked very well to plan. Two years and 400 flight hours later, I put it up for sale to go find my forever Mooney. I'd been completely transparent about that Mooney here and when I posted it for sale. It sold quick right here on MooneySpace.

I'd already been looking for some time, knew what I wanted, and was ready to move quick when I found it. Now five years and 700 hours later, it's still my forever Mooney. 

[viskr]

I am also ready to move on from my M20E after getting me back for 20 years.  What experience have people had with brokers, trade-a-plane, barnstormers, controller, signs on the prop, or whatever.  I spent a lot of time scanning what I thought was needed in the log books, I got to relive the delivery of the airplane in 1964.  Looking for comments on data I have gathered.

https://eisenhard.net/eisenhard/blog/mooney-n1937y

[carusoam]

There isn’t a better time to be selling a Mooney...

If you are looking to sell one and buy another... A broker that takes you plane in on trade for another Mooney you like would be great...

There is one guy, Jimmy... that focuses on buying and selling Mooneys...  check out his inventory...

https://www.gmaxamericanaircraft.com/inventory/?/listings/for-sale/aircraft/13?dscompanyid=6946&dlr=1&settingscrmid=614667
 

If you are familiar with selling machines... or houses... planes aren’t much different... complex, expensive, and bought by ordinary people...

If you don’t like selling stuff... to who knows who... including tire kickers... using a broker can really make sense...

What’s your objective? Ease of transition? Or squeeze out every last amu? Or looking to try your hand at selling in a good market?

What’s next?

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

I bought my Mooney here on Mooneyspace.  My one hope is by the time I go to sell it Mooneyspace will no longer exist, the internet will no longer exist, they'll just beam this stuff into your head.  And we'll have permanent Lunar and martian colonies.

[A64Pilot]

I sold our cruising boat, to the first person that really looked.

‘I was I’m pretty sure I was the first person that showed up to look at the Mooney I bought. Priced right , things sell, and now is the time to sell. Money is cheap now so things are selling.

‘Selling the boat, I used a Broker and thst was likely a mistake as it cost me $10,000 and they really didn’t do anything,I showed the boat, did the sea trial and went through all the electronics that the Broker didn’t understand.

‘Guy I bought the Mooney from did not use a Broker and sold it fast anyway, take that money your going to pay the Broker and reduce the price of the airplane by that amount,it will sell fast and for the same money in your pocket.

So far as use tax, investigate setting up a Montana LLC and having it purchase the aircraft.  A large number of the owners of the super expensive bus RV owners do it, and I see no reason why it’s not just as legal and legit for an airplane. However Fl for instance you have to own the aircraft for 6 months before it’s brought into aft or use tax is owed,I think.

https://www.49dollarmontanaregisteredagent.com/vehicle-llc

Guy I bought my airplane from had it in an LLC and offered to sell me the LLC for the purchase price of the airplane, but it was a Ga LLC and I didn’t have a Ga address so I didn’t. But if you buy the LLC apparently no sales tax is due.

Note, I’m not a Lawyer so before you put any confidence in some nut on the internet that you have never even met, maybe verify with a real Lawyer.

 

Edited March 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[ArtVandelay]

Montana LLC (or Delaware) won’t help in most states. They are very aware of people hiding property. In North Carolina the marinas must file a report to the state with what boats are docked there. They’ll send you a bill.

I would think airports would do the same. Now if you own your own hangar home you’ll might be able to get around it.

You might be able to convince them that’s not your permanent residence but the burden is on you.

[Tim Jodice]

On 2/16/2021 at 3:41 PM, larryb said:

I bought my Encore from a dealer and sold my J through the same guy. I did it for convenience and do not regret a thing.

I did exactly this. The broker I bought my Mooney from was great from a buyers standpoint but there were a few things (not bad) that was obvious he was protecting/filtering for the seller.

I liked that so I used him to sell my Baron.

I had a old 1961 Baron that had one runout engine the other mid time, crappy panel okay paint, fair interior, damage history from the 80s and complete logs.

He said straight up this is going to take a special buyer. He asked how much I wanted I said I don't know what ever you think the market will pay. I do know I don't want to sit on it.

He said here is how we are going to do it, I will list it a few grand above Vref let it sit for 2 weeks get a feel for the interest and so it will get on the people's list that don't call then if it doesn't sell we will drop the price $1,000 a week.

Doing that will make the quiet people take notice and each time it goes down it makes them nervous that someone else will buy it. It took 4 weeks. I accepted the first offer.

Then a twist. The guy who bought it asked if I would fly it from New Hampshire to New Mexico. Having put 300+ hours in the last year I said without hesitation absolutely! He said good if it makes it here that is a good enough prebuy for me.

The mechanic in me misses the Horsepower but I don't miss the maintenance or fuel flow.

 

 

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Montana LLC (or Delaware) won’t help in most states. They are very aware of people hiding property. In North Carolina the marinas must file a report to the state with what boats are docked there. They’ll send you a bill.

I would think airports would do the same. Now if you own your own hangar home you’ll might be able to get around it.

You might be able to convince them that’s not your permanent residence but the burden is on you.

Same here in California, Airport FBO provide N numbers of all aircraft hangarded or in tie-down on a date in Jan (Jan 1st? - I forget) and the county's use that list to put us on their annual use/property tax bills. Plus, If they also see they didn't collect sales tax, then they'll inquire to see if sales tax is due too and collect with penalty's/interest if overdue. 

An LLC won't help in CA for taxes either, as Tom said above. It only really helps with sheltering you from liability from your partners.

It used to be that when a private GA owner bought a plane  as a CA resident that they could avoid sales tax by not bringing the plane into CA for a period of time as low as 3 months as long as the plane never flew over or into CA; but those exemptions are no longer. I was able to take advantage of that 20+ years ago - when I bought my second plane from a broker. Didn't know enough when I bought my first plane from a private owner. These days I think it's only possible for business owners to get an exemption but they may need to keep the plane out of CA for 6 months - plus when I last looked into it, it wasn't going to work to be a business owner in name only based on the way they set it up. But best to consult with an aviation tax consultant if interested.

[merlin]

What an excellent and unexpected discussion!  I love this little community ❤️

[ZuluZulu]

42 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Same here in California, Airport FBO provide N numbers of all aircraft hangarded or in tie-down on a date in Jan (Jan 1st? - I forget) and the county's use that list to put us on their annual use/property tax bills. Plus, If they also see they didn't collect sales tax, then they'll inquire to see if sales tax is due too and collect with penalty's/interest if overdue. 

An LLC won't help in CA for taxes either, as Tom said above. It only really helps with sheltering you from liability from your partners.

It used to be that when a private GA owner bought a plane  as a CA resident that they could avoid sales tax by not bringing the plane into CA for a period of time as low as 3 months as long as the plane never flew over or into CA; but those exemptions are no longer. I was able to take advantage of that 20+ years ago - when I bought my second plane from a broker. Didn't know enough when I bought my first plane from a private owner. These days I think it's only possible for business owners to get an exemption but they may need to keep the plane out of CA for 6 months - plus when I last looked into it, it wasn't going to work to be a business owner in name only based on the way they set it up. But best to consult with an aviation tax consultant if interested.

I looked into all of this when I bought last year.  I was going to use the interstate commerce exemption by flying to Oshkosh and other conventions to pass out my business card.  Fun, and lots of trips to learn the plane!  Great plan, until COVID decided it wanted me to pay the tax.