Is this a doable flight in a M20F

[Dream to fly]

I am reaching out to the guys that travel distance in their Mooney.  I bought this thing to travel and I had the same hang-ups when I ventured the first time to Long Island and now it is pretty easy.  I live in ND where air traffic is easy to navigate and the first time into the east coast airspace was a real eye opener.  Nothing I wasn't shocked with just had to be on my A game.  Now I would like to venture out of the snow this winter and head south west.  I have family in Apache Junction I'd like to visit but I only really see that I have one corridor to travel.  KHZE-KCPR-KIWA.    I'm working on my IFR ticket but am a solid VFR pilot.  Two things I don't have is O2 and an autopilot.  Your thoughts.  Time line is December thru March.  I have an annual this month and a windshield upgrade to finish.

[larryb]

I would add the O2. Ideally the Mountain High O2D2 system. With that system 2 people can fly over 20 hours at 15,000 feet on a single 24 cu ft tank. When I had my J I flew it often at 14.5 to 15.5K.  Without O2 you will be uncomfortably close to those rocks. Not having O2 is very limiting in that area of the country. Sure, it can be done without but it is much better with. 

 

I haven't flown your exact route but I have flown in the area. The terrain between KCPR and KRKS is relatively friendly. That is generally where I cross the Rockies. Airports are few and far between in that area, so it can complicate your fuel planning. 

[carusoam]

Joe, you have come a long way... figuratively and literally! 
 

All flights are doable in an M20F...

unless... 

• They are above 15k’
• in thunderstorms
• in icing conditions

Going into busy airspace doesn’t change much... except some accents may be harder to decipher on your first time...

Going into busy airspace the controllers are quite busy and expect you to execute your best A-game...

They will be handling you and five other aircraft at the same time...
 

Using flight following is a lot like being in the IR system... listening to the radio for every broadcast and deciding is that for me or for somebody else...

Flying long cross countries sans AP can get very tiring without knowing it...

The more you do it... the better you get at it...

Good to have...

• O2 sensor for your finger tip...
• CO sensor for your instrument panel...

PP thoughts only, experience of my old M20C... it went everywhere, without much instrumentation...

Best regards,

-a- 

[Dream to fly]

Well then I need to ask Santa for O2 and a RayJay and the Gods to release the Garmin 500 for an F model. Or win the lottery and get a 252.

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[smwash02]

I did similar flights in my C and it wasn't an issue, even before I got an o2 setup -- medical bottle and some cannulas.

If you want to do the whole trip IFR, you'll need o2 and it might be a bit difficult in an F unless you're light. 

Go for it, should be a beautiful set of flights.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Dream to fly said:

I am reaching out to the guys that travel distance in their Mooney.  I bought this thing to travel and I had the same hang-ups when I ventured the first time to Long Island and now it is pretty easy.  I live in ND where air traffic is easy to navigate and the first time into the east coast airspace was a real eye opener.  Nothing I wasn't shocked with just had to be on my A game.  Now I would like to venture out of the snow this winter and head south west.  I have family in Apache Junction I'd like to visit but I only really see that I have one corridor to travel.  KHZE-KCPR-KIWA.    I'm working on my IFR ticket but am a solid VFR pilot.  Two things I don't have is O2 and an autopilot.  Your thoughts.  Time line is December thru March.  I have an annual this month and a windshield upgrade to finish.

Definitely doable.  I’d do it in my F for sure.  As they said, if you wanted to do it ifr, oxygen would be better, but it looks like the MEAs on the Victor routes would get you down there with 12k being the highest.  And that’s a minimum of 2000’ above the highest obstacle.  Make sure you get a good weather day.  You’re gonna have to cruise 10-12,500’ so oxygen would be nice if available.  You’ll end up fatigued if you don’t use it.

Fly V26 if you want to stay slightly away from the bigger mtns.  Also, drop down and check out monument valley as you go over.  It’s awesome.

One other caution... strong winds aloft.  Even if it’s not a headwind, strong west winds can cause lots of turbulence.  Usually you see it east of the Sierras or east of the Rockies, but there’s enough mtns west of your route that any strong winds aloft would give me pause.

[N201MKTurbo]

Your route is easily doable. I had an F for 19 years and flew all over the Rockies. Just head down to Casper or Rawlins, then to the west of the mountains And head south. No problem. 
 

Give a call when you get here. We can have a beer.

You might contact @Eric J, he makes that trip often.

[EricJ]

I've flown KRAP (Rapid City, SoDak) - KDVT (Deer Valley, Phoenix, AZ) a number of times.   I'll second @N201MKTurbo that going up and down via the western slope of the Rockies is pretty easy, and is also a nice trip especially once you get into southern UT.   The KCPR-KIWA leg is very long and I'd suggest a stop in between mostly for bladder service.   I've stopped at KCNY, KGJT, 4V0 and KPGA.   I think Page does not have self-serve fuel, but the rest did when I stopped there.   KGJT (Grand Junction) and KCNY (Moab) are both good stops.   4V0 (Rangely, CO) is pretty remote and there's not much there.

You won't need O2 on that route.   You may need to go up to 10-11k for the mountains in southern WY, but not for very long.

That time of year you'll want to watch the weather very closely.    The western slope usually has better weather than the eastern slope, and is a straighter shot by a significant amount.   I came back to DVT from KRAP earlier this month and wound up coming down the eastern slope via Trinidad, CO (KTAD), and crossed the divide at Angel Fire, which I wouldn't do without O2.   Otherwise you have to go a lot further south before heading west and it makes the trip even longer.   So the better weather and faster, easier trip generally favors the western slope route that you suggested.   As long as the weather cooperates it shouldn't be a problem in an F model, even with no O2 or autopilot.    My autopilot has been inop for a couple of years, so I've been doing without as well. 

 

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

Well then I need to ask Santa for O2 and a RayJay and the Gods to release the Garmin 500 for an F model. Or win the lottery and get a 252.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk
 

For clarity...

O2 is nice to have...

An O2 monitor for your fingertip... is a nice way of measuring how well you are doing.... with or without an O2 system...

Everyone is different...

Knowing how well you do after flying at altitude will be helpful planning the next few days...

You might find after a few hours that your O2 saturation level isn’t the same as your first hour...

There are a few side affects to become familiar with regarding O2 deprivation... Again, everyone has different responses.  Some more recognizable than others...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

I entered the three airports listed into WingX for a visualization exercise...

[skydvrboy]

"Is this a doable flight in a M20F?"  Yes, the 960 nm flight is doable with the 64 gallon tanks of the M20F and you would still have legal reserves.    For bladder comfort, you may want to make a stop somewhere along the way though!  You've got to love the range of the Mooney.

Seriously though, as other's have already said the weather will be your biggest obstacle.  Be wary of winds aloft, they can make flight in the mountains extremely uncomfortable.  Also, if you get a chance, some mountain flying training would be helpful.  Not everything is intuitive in the mountains.

[MikeOH]

Absolutely doable.

To add to what others have said, weather will be your biggest obstacle December through March.

The problem will not be with getting there, as you'll not launch without good forecasts, but with the return trip.  More so if you plan on staying a few days, or more, where the weather has future uncertainty.  Be careful of get-home-itis especially if you have a job or major commitment that you need to be back for.

[kpaul]

13 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

Well then I need to ask Santa for O2 and a RayJay and the Gods to release the Garmin 500 for an F model. Or win the lottery and get a 252.

Sent from my E6910 using Tapatalk
 

Well the Gods have answered your prayers...the GFC 500 is available for the F.

[0TreeLemur]

I've got some experience in flying in western Colorado and Utah.  Your route of flight avoids the tallest mountains.   You'll still need to dodge some high terrain. and a few taller peaks.  You'll want to fly at 10.5 and occasionally 12.5. In the summer/fall this trip would generally be easy in the absence of major frontal activity.

In the winter that route presents some real challenges for NA aircraft.  Here's the down side.  You are going to fly right through the "Wyoming Wind Gap" between Casper, WY, and Craig, CO.  In the winter this is one of the windiest, most turbulent atmospheric regions in the continental U.S. as the wind flows around the Colorado Rockies.   Conditions are predicted using the the height difference of the 500 mb level between Casper to Craig.  If this height difference exceeds 30 m, it can be bad.  If it exceeds 50 m, turbulence can be severe.  If it approaches or exceeds 70 m, then expect extreme conditions.  Mountains and terrain are often obscured along that route by clouds.

A much safer route for a NA Mooney, in the absence of significant weather caused by frontal passage, would be to fly south to Tucumcari or Clovis NM, then west around the mountains in New Mexico.  There is a similar wind gap in New Mexico that occasionally experiences strong winds too. 

In general, flying in the Rockies in the winter in a NA aircraft is a bad idea, except for the occasional periods of dominant high pressure that rarely occur.

<not a meteorologists>

 

[Dream to fly]

Thank you for the answers especially the G500. This Forum is absolutely the best tool to have if you own a Mooney. I need to plan and pack. My next issue is the annual and the windshield. However if the G500is a go it might be a good time for that too with the windshield out of the way.

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[0TreeLemur]

3 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

I've got some experience in flying in western Colorado and Utah.  Your route of flight avoids the tallest mountains.   You'll still need to dodge some high terrain. and a few taller peaks.  You'll want to fly at 10.5 and occasionally 12.5. In the summer/fall this trip would generally be easy in the absence of major frontal activity.

In the winter that route presents some real challenges for NA aircraft.  Here's the down side.  You are going to fly right through the "Wyoming Wind Gap" between Casper, WY, and Craig, CO.  In the winter this is one of the windiest, most turbulent atmospheric regions in the continental U.S. as the wind flows around the Colorado Rockies.   Conditions are predicted using the the height difference of the 500 mb level between Casper to Craig.  If this height difference exceeds 30 m, it can be bad.  If it exceeds 50 m, turbulence can be severe.  If it approaches or exceeds 70 m, then expect extreme conditions.  Mountains and terrain are often obscured along that route by clouds.

A much safer route for a NA Mooney, in the absence of significant weather caused by frontal passage, would be to fly south to Tucumcari or Clovis NM, then west around the mountains in New Mexico.  There is a similar wind gap in New Mexico that occasionally experiences strong winds too. 

In general, flying in the Rockies in the winter in a NA aircraft is a bad idea, except for the occasional periods of dominant high pressure that rarely occur.

<not a meteorologist>

 

 

[Dream to fly]

I've got some experience in flying in western Colorado and Utah.  Your route of flight avoids the tallest mountains.   You'll still need to dodge some high terrain. and a few taller peaks.  You'll want to fly at 10.5 and occasionally 12.5. In the summer/fall this trip would generally be easy in the absence of major frontal activity.
In the winter that route presents some real challenges for NA aircraft.  Here's the down side.  You are going to fly right through the "Wyoming Wind Gap" between Casper, WY, and Craig, CO.  In the winter this is one of the windiest, most turbulent atmospheric regions in the continental U.S. as the wind flows around the Colorado Rockies.   Conditions are predicted using the the height difference of the 500 mb level between Casper to Craig.  If this height difference exceeds 30 m, it can be bad.  If it exceeds 50 m, turbulence can be severe.  If it approaches or exceeds 70 m, then expect extreme conditions.  Mountains and terrain are often obscured along that route by clouds.
A much safer route for a NA Mooney, in the absence of significant weather caused by frontal passage, would be to fly south to Tucumcari or Clovis NM, then west around the mountains in New Mexico.  There is a similar wind gap in New Mexico that occasionally experiences strong winds too. 
In general, flying in the Rockies in the winter in a NA aircraft is a bad idea, except for the occasional periods of dominant high pressure that rarely occur.

 

Ok I understand what you are saying. I am definitely listening. If my F had a RayJay and I get my IFR ticket does that make that trip more doable. I'm stuck with this plane I want
/need a 252 but I can't sell and make up the difference without doing all this work all over. So the best option is to keep modifying and learning on my F.

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[gsxrpilot]

Joe, you can do that flight easily in your F. I'd say that high pressure days are actually pretty common out here or at least that's been my experience. And in the winter you'll get more turbulence free hours in the day as opposed to summer time in the mountains where we don't fly after noon.

I'd add one more stop at KCYN. Coming into Moab is spectacular and in the wintertime you'll have no problem with density altitude.

Pick some things to see from the air on this trip and enjoy it. Look for Horseshoe Bend, Arches National Park and all the formations there. Lake Powell, Grand Canyon, etc, etc.

I think this is an easy trip for you in the F. Have fun.

[0TreeLemur]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Joe, you can do that flight easily in your F. I'd say that high pressure days are actually pretty common out here or at least that's been my experience. And in the winter you'll get more turbulence free hours in the day as opposed to summer time in the mountains where we don't fly after noon.

I'd add one more stop at KCYN. Coming into Moab is spectacular and in the wintertime you'll have no problem with density altitude.

Pick some things to see from the air on this trip and enjoy it. Look for Horseshoe Bend, Arches National Park and all the formations there. Lake Powell, Grand Canyon, etc, etc.

I think this is an easy trip for you in the F. Have fun.

Aha.  Front range winter weather is _not_ Rocky Mountain winter weather.   There's a reason the fish hang out behind rocks in a stream.  The Rockies are littered with crunched up balls of aluminum that were once NA aircraft and most of them met their end in the winter.  In the summer or fall, I completely agree that this trip is very doable in an F.   I flew something similar a few years ago in a C, but in August. 

I lived over 30 years in Colorado and Wyoming.  The front range and eastern plains are on average much nicer in the winter than in the Rockies when there is a decent pressure difference between SLC and DEN.  Mountain passes become venturis, and can quickly become obscured.   Intense updrafts/downdrafts form.  Hydraulic jumps on the lee side of mountains cause huge and intense roller eddies.  Lenticular clouds are plentiful.   Severe turbulence.  Terrible flying conditions at times, even the airliners avoid the Wyoming wind gap during those periods.

[Ragsf15e]

4 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Aha.  Front range winter weather is _not_ Rocky Mountain winter weather.   There's a reason the fish hang out behind rocks in a stream.  The Rockies are littered with crunched up balls of aluminum that were once NA aircraft and most of them met their end in the winter.  In the summer or fall, I completely agree that this trip is very doable in an F.   I flew something similar a few years ago in a C, but in August. 

I lived over 30 years in Colorado and Wyoming.  The front range and eastern plains are on average much nicer in the winter than in the Rockies when there is a decent pressure difference between SLC and DEN.  Mountain passes become venturis, and can quickly become obscured.   Intense updrafts/downdrafts form.  Hydraulic jumps on the lee side of mountains cause huge and intense roller eddies.  Lenticular clouds are plentiful.   Severe turbulence.  Terrible flying conditions at times, even the airliners avoid the Wyoming wind gap during those periods.

Yeah don’t go if there’s lenticular clouds or strong west winds.  There are plenty of other days though.  Even through the winter, plenty of bluebird, cold days with light winds.  Does a turbo add utility?  Maybe at times, but usually to get above a mid level cloud layer or up into a nice tailwind.  If there’s strong west winds and lenticular clouds, a turbo isn’t going to get you out of that at all.  Cruising in an F at 10-12,000’ is easy.  Probably do 15,000’ if you really wanted to.  No matter what, you need reasonable weather and it really shouldn’t be an issue if you’re flexible.

[Danb]

Joey the only holdup would be yourself. Our good friend Bob Belview transversed all over that region a year ago in his beautiful E model.

Do and redo your flight plan be prepared to alter based on conditions to yourself, your plane or the flight conditions.

I would get Santa to buy me a portable oxygen system. Then plan some more.

It will be an awesome adventure you’ll remember forever. Be very flexible no timeline. 
The experience you gain will lead to more great trips, build your confidence and so on.

Your plane will easily do the trip. Have fun and let us all know all about your adventures 

[gsxrpilot]

49 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Aha.  Front range winter weather is _not_ Rocky Mountain winter weather.   There's a reason the fish hang out behind rocks in a stream.  The Rockies are littered with crunched up balls of aluminum that were once NA aircraft and most of them met their end in the winter.  In the summer or fall, I completely agree that this trip is very doable in an F.   I flew something similar a few years ago in a C, but in August. 

I lived over 30 years in Colorado and Wyoming.  The front range and eastern plains are on average much nicer in the winter than in the Rockies when there is a decent pressure difference between SLC and DEN.  Mountain passes become venturis, and can quickly become obscured.   Intense updrafts/downdrafts form.  Hydraulic jumps on the lee side of mountains cause huge and intense roller eddies.  Lenticular clouds are plentiful.   Severe turbulence.  Terrible flying conditions at times, even the airliners avoid the Wyoming wind gap during those periods.

Can the weather be bad for flying in the winter time, sure. But there are also plenty of beautiful flying days as well. I'll grant I don't have nearly your years of experience in the Rockys but in the 5 or 6 years I've been flying in the mountains, I've had plenty of good luck in the winter. There are certainly days I wouldn't fly but that goes for winter and summer.

I've been into Montrose, Granby, Steamboat, Moab, Durango, Pagosa, Santa Fe, Rawlins, Rock Springs, and Evanston, all in the winter. Check the sky and check the winds. Fly on the good days. But I wouldn't write off the whole season.

Here's my wife in our M20C, somewhere over the western slope, in the winter.

[ArtVandelay]

Can the weather be bad for flying in the winter time, sure.
Here's my wife in our M20C, somewhere over the western slope, in the winter.

She doesn’t look happy

[gsxrpilot]

16 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

She doesn’t look happy

How about here... 

[0TreeLemur]

4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

How about here... 

 

Looks like the heater in your C was as powerful as ours is!

[Jim Peace]

22 hours ago, carusoam said:

Flying long cross countries sans AP can get very tiring without knowing it...

Yup.....I once flew a Cessan 210 for a 12.5 hour leg with no AP (non-stop)....I was so damn tired and I was only 23 or 24 at the time.....