Purchasing a Mooney

J-D · October 20, 2020

Howdy!

I am a student pilot still still learning about flying an airplane. I also started looking around to purchase an airplane specifically a Mooney for its speed. Currently, I drive a lot for work/business (about 60K miles a year) and hoping that getting an airplane will save me a lot of time. Most of my travels are going to be between Houston, TX (where I live) and Austin and Dallas TX. I also need to fly to Ohio 6-7 times a year for business. For most of my flights, I will be alone. For trips to OH, I might combine family and business so there can be up to 3 average sized adults in the plane for those trips.

I have been reading forums a while and decided that I will actually not use my airplane for my private pilot certificate. However, as soon as, I get my PPL I plan to work on IFR rating and hoping I will have my airplane by that time. If I can find, I will choose a Mooney experienced instructor for the IFR training.

Anyway, I started looking for M20J initially, then I convinced myself to get a M20K 252 possibly. Once I started thinking about M20K 252, I saw a few Ovations on the controller around $160K close to M20K 252 prices. I don't want to spend more than that amount for an airplane now. Another reason for me to consider an Ovation is that I read Ovations are more comfortable, which might be great for my parents if and when they travel with me (my parents live in OH)

Given this background, I was wondering if anybody assess the following three airplanes especially by pointing out any specific things to watch for. Of course, once I think seriously about purchasing one, I plan to get a pre-buy done by a competent shop.

Thanks in advance!

JD

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/197840917/1987-mooney-m20k-252tse-piston-single-aircraft

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/147262289/1999-mooney-m20r-ovation-piston-single-aircraft

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/195764623/1998-mooney-m20r-ovation-piston-single-aircraft

irishpilot · October 20, 2020

Hello @J-D and welcome to MS! How far along are you in your training? First, any of the models listed are great commuters. Pros and cons for turbo vs non-turbo. Lots of threads on this.

Second, list your "must have" vs "nice to have" capability/equipment.

Third, be realistic on how much you'll be able to commute with your plane. I've commuted off-and-on with two Mooney's (and E and Bravo). Until you have your IFR ticket, wx will be your limiting factor. Once you have it, wx will still be your limiting factor. Always have a backup travel plan so you never put yourself in a square corner when making a Go/No Go decision.

Fourth, I know there are some MSers in the DFW area. See if you can get a flight in each of the models you're looking at. Good luck with the training and with your Mooney search!

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

**Jeff_S** · October 20, 2020

Welcome J-D. Mooneys make a good commuting tool, but what IrishPilot said is all true. No GA airplane is going to be your 100% solution.

Also, be realistic about your flying capabilities early on. Any Mooney is going to be a lot to handle for someone just coming out of a trainer. Retractable gear, constant speed prop, and demanding landing characteristics are all new things to learn and master. I can tell you that when I got my PPL, I started by owning a Piper Warrior first, which I used to get my instrument ticket and to learn to fly around in the system. Then I upgraded to a J model to learn how to fly a higher performance aircraft, and then finally ended up in an Ovation which meets all my needs. Each progression helped me grow my skills and experience.

That was me, and I know some others here have said they bought an early C or D model and did their training in that. It’s all going to depend on how much time you can put into gaining proficiency. So just be cognizant of this as you explore your options. It’s amazing good fun to look at airplanes for sale...but really think about your mission and your own progression as you do this.

Good luck!

**ToddCC22** · October 20, 2020

As someone that was recently in your position, my path was to buy a Cherokee 180 to get me thru my IFR rating and log my first 275 hours. Then I bought my M20K and love it. Learning and building confidence in a slower, less complex airplane to me was a good transition to the Mooney. My insurance quote for the Mooney was noticeably cheaper after 300 hours. Like mentioned above be aware of always having another option in Go/ No Go situations, so you can make good choices. Good luck on your venture!

HIghpockets · October 20, 2020

I agree with ToddCC22. After 29 hours of flight training I purchased a Cherokee 180. I flew it for the first 500 hours getting both my PPL and Instrument Rating. Afterward, I stepped up to a J that I have flown ever since. My instructor, a captain for USAir who had more time at the outer marker than I ever will have, recommended this approach. IFR flying is mostly a cognitive challenge. You want your stick and rudder skills to be second nature before stepping into a complex airplane.

Regards,

TGS

Missile=Awesome · October 20, 2020

I think you should train in a Cherokee and rent an Arrow for Instrument rating. THEN look at a Mooney purchase. I personally would of been overwhelmed by transition into a Mooney right after pilots license. Continue to train and learn in someone else’s plane and THEN purchase your own plane. East of the Rockies I would not do turbo either. Your mission sounds like an Ovation would be a great fit...BUT NOT NOW. Be safe. Be wise. Be alive to enjoy your family.

KB4 · October 20, 2020

Echo others. Trainer to Ovation, lets just say staying ahead of plane is going to be a real challenge. Insurance rates will also be challenging. But with enough dual to where you feel comfortable, I think it can be done.

gsxrpilot · October 20, 2020

Ok, I'll take the other side of the argument here. I think your plan is a good one. Get your Private and then get the Mooney you want and can afford. The speed and power will be shocking at first and you'll struggle to stay in front of the airplane. But it's nothing 10 or 20 hours with a CFI or other experienced Mooney Pilot can't solve. Fly it VFR for 6 months to a year and then get your IFR in that airplane. The one you're now comfortable flying.

I used to live in Dallas and then lived in Austin for a few years. The Dallas, Austin, Houston triangle is perfect for a small single engine airplane. You'll be able to make the flights probably 70% of the time VFR and after adding IFR, your dispatch rate will be closer to 90%. You'll rarely have any icing and typical thunderstorms can be seen for a hundred miles and can usually be avoided by going around them.

There is a huge Mooney community in Texas with lots of options to get experience and to find the right bird. Take a drive out to Smithville and meet JD and Laura Casteel who are one of the top Mooney Service Centers in the country and will have a hangar full of Mooneys for you to look at. Take a drive all the way to Kestrel on the north side of San Antonio and meet Jimmy Garrison who will also have a hangar full of Mooneys. But bring your checkbook as they are all for sale and Jimmy's a better than average seller.

The learning curve from a trainer to an Ovation or other Mooney is a steep one. But it's not impossible. The plethora of airports scattered all over east Texas, flat terrain, and long runways, will ease the transition. Even the larger airports like DAL HOU and AUS are all GA friendly. I don't know of a better place to use a single engine airplane to commute.

**StevenL757** · October 20, 2020

4 hours ago, Jeff_S said:

Welcome J-D. Mooneys make a good commuting tool, but what IrishPilot said is all true. No GA airplane is going to be your 100% solution.

Also, be realistic about your flying capabilities early on. Any Mooney is going to be a lot to handle for someone just coming out of a trainer. Retractable gear, constant speed prop, and demanding landing characteristics are all new things to learn and master. I can tell you that when I got my PPL, I started by owning a Piper Warrior first, which I used to get my instrument ticket and to learn to fly around in the system. Then I upgraded to a J model to learn how to fly a higher performance aircraft, and then finally ended up in an Ovation which meets all my needs. Each progression helped me grow my skills and experience.

That was me, and I know some others here have said they bought an early C or D model and did their training in that. It’s all going to depend on how much time you can put into gaining proficiency. So just be cognizant of this as you explore your options. It’s amazing good fun to look at airplanes for sale...but really think about your mission and your own progression as you do this.

Good luck!

Great advice overall, nothing much to add here.

10 hours ago, J-D said:

Given this background, I was wondering if anybody assess the following three airplanes especially by pointing out any specific things to watch for. Of course, once I think seriously about purchasing one, I plan to get a pre-buy done by a competent shop.

Thanks in advance!

JD

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/197840917/1987-mooney-m20k-252tse-piston-single-aircraft

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/147262289/1999-mooney-m20r-ovation-piston-single-aircraft

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/195764623/1998-mooney-m20r-ovation-piston-single-aircraft

Welcome to the site. I'll comment on the two Ovation choices, and will say generally that the "K" maintenance will be more expensive than the Ovations...mainly due to maintaining a turbo and an older fuselage overall. I'll leave the rest of the "K" input to those owners/experts. :-)

The 1999 Ovation - Pros

Prop OH last year
Some avionics are good - EDM900, Sandel, GNS430 (although doesn't appear to be a "W")
Exterior and interior largely look good
Appears to have been hangared, but double-check with owner/broker

The 1999 Ovation - Cons

Airplane flew (on average) 100+ hours from birth to 2011. Over the last 9 years it has flown a total of 83 hours...around 9 hours per year - completely insufficient
1420 hours on a 21+ year-old engine core should be treated as run out, and needs factoring into the price
No TKS or other ice protection. If you're planning to travel regularly to Ohio or anywhere north of Texas year-round, you'd be wise to look for an Ovation with TKS
Oxygen system was taken out of service by the owner several years ago. No reason given.
Inconsistent oil changes (some as long as 100 hours and 9-12 month intervals)
I don't see evidence of shock discs being replaced, so would need inspecting
"Some" damage has occurred early in its life, but appears to have been repaired. Probably not enough to show on the NTSB-FAA report. May not be a concern.

The 1998 Ovation - Pros

Engine OH done 1367 hours ago, but would like to know how much calendar time since
The GNS530W, 330ES transponder, and HSI are pluses

The 1998 Ovation - Cons

Seller notes damage history - how much is unknown
If airplane has been tied down in Myrtle Beach, SC (or even if hangared there), I'd be suspicious of corrosion throughout the airframe and engine
Oil Temp and Oil Pressure gauges appear INOP (Pressure is off-scale, Temp is very high for cruise flight)
ELT appears to have been removed in lieu of some sort of audio inputs
No TKS or other ice protection
No oxygen installed
New paint and interior (especially sideliners and headliners) needed in the short to medium term
Wondering why some photos show tape/covering of all the engine instruments and parts of the annunciator panel, and other photos show the labels

I'm sure there are more...these are just for starters. Best of luck...reach out if more questions.

Steve

**Hank** · October 20, 2020

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Ok, I'll take the other side of the argument here. I think your plan is a good one. Get your Private and then get the Mooney you want and can afford. The speed and power will be shocking at first and you'll struggle to stay in front of the airplane. But it's nothing 10 or 20 hours with a CFI or other experienced Mooney Pilot can't solve. Fly it VFR for 6 months to a year and then get your IFR in that airplane. The one you're now comfortable flying.

What he said.

I bought my not-early C model right after my checkride, with 62 Cessna hours in my logbook. I was still in "student" mode, and went from learning the Skyhawk to learning my Mooney. Flew VFR all over! Had loads of fun! Then knuckled down and earned my IFR rating in my Mooney, which I knew backwards and forwards by then.

Sure, an Ovation will be a steeper learning curve and will definitely require dedication and frequent flying to get the hang of it. Personally, with your missions all in low altitude flatlands, I wouldn't spend the money to buy and maintain a turbo--to get a real speed advantage, they require going into the flight levels. Do expect insurance to be rather high. Mine came down 50% the second year with 100 hours PIC in my Mooney the first year.

Most insurers will require 15-20 hours dual instruction anyway, plenty of supervised time to get comfortable with your Mooney.

Happy hunting! Let us know how it goes.

**carusoam** · October 20, 2020

Summary...

1) Texas is a perfect place to fly/own/service a Mooney...

2) going from new pilot, to Mooney pilot, to extra high performance Mooney pilot, takes some additional dedication...

3) Insurance companies have a way to let you know what you want to do has some additional risk...

4) To asses your additional risk... we have a guy named Parker... our chief risk assessor...

5) Often, @Parker_Woodruff can give you insight to what the costs of risk mitigation are... (MooneySpace insurance guy)

JD, you came to the right place!

Mooneys are great for...

Speed
Efficiency
safety

Mooney pilots are great at...

Safety
Efficiency
Speed

Glad you made it here.

Best regards,

-a-

**Danb** · October 20, 2020

I’ll bite similar to Paul aka Rocket.

I started flight training being a lowly CPA I calculated the cost to acquire my ppl including rental therefore after 2 lessons I fell in love actually after one flight. Renting was cost prohibitive. Purchased a warrior and got my ppl in six months like everyone else, my instructor told me it’s time to learn and continue on the with your Instrument rating, since I was going to be getting another six months of lessons it made sense to find a real traveling machine, Decided on a Mooney didn’t like the Bo’s, 210’s or Arrows my instructor had a E class Mooney I liked so we found a nice 1977 201 to learn to fly and acquire my instrument rating in. Couple years later updated to a new 1988 J, kept and continued learning until 2005 and wanted a more capable traveling machine or wife did so in came a 2005 Bravo GX. To old to move to a turbine or twin.
The story being once you become comfy in your trainer you’d be ready for a complex plane or high performance complex plane..go for it.

**Parker_Woodruff** · October 20, 2020

Yep - get your private then get the Mooney you want. Happy to quote your insurance.

Parker

Airspeed Insurance Agency

214-295-5055

Parker@airspeedinsurance.com

J-D · October 21, 2020

9 hours ago, Missile=Awesome said:

I think you should train in a Cherokee and rent an Arrow for Instrument rating. THEN look at a Mooney purchase. I personally would of been overwhelmed by transition into a Mooney right after pilots license. Continue to train and learn in someone else’s plane and THEN purchase your own plane. East of the Rockies I would not do turbo either. Your mission sounds like an Ovation would be a great fit...BUT NOT NOW. Be safe. Be wise. Be alive to enjoy your family.

Thank you and all others who suggested starting with another airplane. Based on my understanding, it is too much hassle to buy and sell airplanes. So, I am inclined to buy something I really want at the beginning and use expenses related to buying/selling to train with a Mooney instructor.

J-D · October 21, 2020

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

There is a huge Mooney community in Texas with lots of options to get experience and to find the right bird. Take a drive out to Smithville and meet JD and Laura Casteel who are one of the top Mooney Service Centers in the country and will have a hangar full of Mooneys for you to look at. Take a drive all the way to Kestrel on the north side of San Antonio and meet Jimmy Garrison who will also have a hangar full of Mooneys. But bring your checkbook as they are all for sale and Jimmy's a better than average seller.

Thank you for your suggestion. I have been trying to find a opening my calendar to stop by Jimmy Garrison (GMAX) on my way to Austin. JD and Laura's place seems to be an easier deviation from my regular route though. I might stop there first.

J-D · October 21, 2020

7 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Great advice overall, nothing much to add here.

Welcome to the site. I'll comment on the two Ovation choices, and will say generally that the "K" maintenance will be more expensive than the Ovations...mainly due to maintaining a turbo and an older fuselage overall. I'll leave the rest of the "K" input to those owners/experts. :-)

The 1999 Ovation - Pros

Prop OH last year

Some avionics are good - EDM900, Sandel, GNS430 (although doesn't appear to be a "W")

Exterior and interior largely look good

Appears to have been hangared, but double-check with owner/broker

The 1999 Ovation - Cons

Airplane flew (on average) 100+ hours from birth to 2011. Over the last 9 years it has flown a total of 83 hours...around 9 hours per year - completely insufficient

1420 hours on a 21+ year-old engine core should be treated as run out, and needs factoring into the price

No TKS or other ice protection. If you're planning to travel regularly to Ohio or anywhere north of Texas year-round, you'd be wise to look for an Ovation with TKS

Oxygen system was taken out of service by the owner several years ago. No reason given.

Inconsistent oil changes (some as long as 100 hours and 9-12 month intervals)

I don't see evidence of shock discs being replaced, so would need inspecting

"Some" damage has occurred early in its life, but appears to have been repaired. Probably not enough to show on the NTSB-FAA report. May not be a concern.

The 1998 Ovation - Pros

Engine OH done 1367 hours ago, but would like to know how much calendar time since

The GNS530W, 330ES transponder, and HSI are pluses

The 1998 Ovation - Cons

Seller notes damage history - how much is unknown

If airplane has been tied down in Myrtle Beach, SC (or even if hangared there), I'd be suspicious of corrosion throughout the airframe and engine

Oil Temp and Oil Pressure gauges appear INOP (Pressure is off-scale, Temp is very high for cruise flight)

ELT appears to have been removed in lieu of some sort of audio inputs

No TKS or other ice protection

No oxygen installed

New paint and interior (especially sideliners and headliners) needed in the short to medium term

Wondering why some photos show tape/covering of all the engine instruments and parts of the annunciator panel, and other photos show the labels

I'm sure there are more...these are just for starters. Best of luck...reach out if more questions.

Steve

Thank you Steve, this is very helpful. I liked your point about needing TKS. I see a few Ovations with FIKI but they are over 200K and over my budget.

Mooney217RN · October 21, 2020

J-D-

Mooney's are great platforms. But you need to manage your expectations. An Ovation is the very top of the line; I fly one. I flew a couple thousand hours in an E Model, and the transition to the Ovation was a lot for me to handle after 20 years flying Mooney aircraft. I have flown an E Model, 231, PFM, M20S and Ovation (M20R). My flight school from years ago had an E Model. I flew it during my primary training.

Personally I think it is realistic to fly an E, F or J for primary flight training and your instrument rating. Anything else is very unrealistic. I have known a number of folks who had bought a 201 (J model) and did their primary training in that platform. I know someone right now who is doing their primary in a 231.

An Ovation is way too much aircraft to handle as a student pilot or low time pilot as far as I am concerned. Not trying to discourage you whatsoever. Just managing expectations.

J-D · October 21, 2020

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

Summary...

1) Texas is a perfect place to fly/own/service a Mooney...

2) going from new pilot, to Mooney pilot, to extra high performance Mooney pilot, takes some additional dedication...

3) Insurance companies have a way to let you know what you want to do has some additional risk...

4) To asses your additional risk... we have a guy named Parker... our chief risk assessor...

5) Often, @Parker_Woodruff can give you insight to what the costs of risk mitigation are... (MooneySpace insurance guy)

JD, you came to the right place!

Mooneys are great for...

Speed

Efficiency

safety

Mooney pilots are great at...

Safety

Efficiency

Speed

Glad you made it here.

Best regards,

-a-

Thank you for your insight. I understand the risk of transition from a trainer to Mooney. That is one reason for me to actually pursue IFR rating immediately after PPL with a Mooney experienced instructor. That would be a 40-hour of training with an instructor. I hope that gets me where I need to be. However, I would continue training with an instructor if needed. That is actually the deal I made with the family that I will not take any unnecessary risk and fly with an instructor as long as I need it.

**carusoam** · October 21, 2020

JD,

We have a couple of people that started with more Airplane than they should have...

so...

Lets see if we can adjust your understanding....

Saving money doesn’t make as much sense when compared to saving your life...

There have been some very dedicated people, that have run into trouble...

If you have time and money for training...

Get the best plane to match your mission...
get the best training to match your skill level and your plane...
Don’t save money doing this by yourself... (that is a bad mix)

A long distance, cross country plane, can cross many weather systems...

You will become an expert in weather prediction, icing avoidance, and thunderstorm avoidance... early on you need to avoid running out of fuel, and flying VFR into crummy visibility....

How does that sound?

Getting the right plane is one thing... being able to use it properly, is an investment in yourself...

more of a how to get to the Mooney level... than to say get a different plane...

Get the right instruction...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

J-D · October 21, 2020

34 minutes ago, carusoam said:

JD,

We have a couple of people that started with more Airplane than they should have...

so...

Lets see if we can adjust your understanding....

Saving money doesn’t make as much sense when compared to saving your life...

There have been some very dedicated people, that have run into trouble...

If you have time and money for training...

Get the best plane to match your mission...

get the best training to match your skill level and your plane...

Don’t save money doing this by yourself... (that is a bad mix)

A long distance, cross country plane, can cross many weather systems...

You will become an expert in weather prediction, icing avoidance, and thunderstorm avoidance... early on you need to avoid running out of fuel, and flying VFR into crummy visibility....

How does that sound?

These sound good to me. Honestly speaking, I am not saying I will buy an Ovation and only an Ovation. I will be happy with J or K as well. I just don't want to purchase another brand airplane to keep a few years and deal with hassle of selling that airplane and buying another one. Regardless of the airplane I get, I will make sure that I am training with an instructor until I am proficient. I have flown to OH using airlines over 10 times in 1.5 years before COVID and would not hesitate to do it again. The same goes for locations in TX, I have been driving for years and can always drive if needed.

KLRDMD · October 21, 2020

1 hour ago, J-D said:

Based on my understanding, it is too much hassle to buy and sell airplanes.

Different people have different experiences. Over the last 20 years I have bought and sold 17 airplanes. The majority were trades of some sort. At this point I own my current airplane free and clear (worth well over $100k) with no personal dollars in it. I made enough buying, selling and trading, all for personal use, to make that happen. YMMV but if I did it, it must be possible.

**carusoam** · October 21, 2020

Feel confident in buying Mooneys...

Some are better for first time ownership than others...

Somewhere around the K is a place where it starts making sense to spend a year in something J and less complex/powerful...

The M20K allows you to fly in the flight levels... quite easily. Until somebody kinks his O2 hose....

With new plane ownership, we have two types of common accidents... running out of gas, and flying VFR into IMC... these aren’t technical challenges, until they happen...

There is a short list of things you may learn early on... but may not recognize the value of the lesson...quite fully.

DA of the departure point... how long is that runway?
Engine out... is it OK to turn back?
When landing, Go Arounds are often necessary... How hard is it?

That (and more) is Mooney flying 101...

When you get to flying with your IR there are two more lessons that come with it...

This is just some of the homework that comes with flying planes...

For the awesome side of flying Mooneys... visit the ‘today’s flight thread’ often...plenty of sunshine, and frozen clouds there today...

Expect that some experience isn’t measured in hours... it can be measured in seasons or years... or in different parts of the country....or Mooney World...

Keep learning, reading, flying, studying, talking with other pilots...

Visiting with Jimmie is one of the coolest experiences you can get... so many different Mooneys, all in one place...

Best regards,

-a-

irishpilot · October 21, 2020

Thank you Steve, this is very helpful. I liked your point about needing TKS. I see a few Ovations with FIKI but they are over 200K and over my budget.

Ohio trips in the winter will be an issue with icing. For comparison, last year I traveled bi-weekly from San Antonio to Alabama. I never planned to fly in/through icing, but used the TKS three times. However, I understand if TKS is outside your price point.

Jimmy at Kestrel is good people. He's got tons of Mooney's and personally owns a K and C.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

N9405V · October 21, 2020

Ok, I’m actually doing something very similar to you. I’m in Austin and do real estate deals in Dallas, Houston and San Antonio. I’ve got a 1970 M20E. The biggest issue is what do you need to do when you get to your destination? Most FBO’s only allow crew cars to be borrowed for an hour or so. If you’re making a days worth of sales calls you’ll need to rent a car. So for me, it’s an almost wash time wise to just jump in my car and drive versus going to the airport, getting the plane ready, flying, doing the fbo shuffle and then getting the rental car. Also, if you have times where you absolutely have to be there are you going to get bit by “get rhereitis?. Really depends on what your flexibility is. Don’t get me wrong, there have been days where I’ve had inspections on Dallas and Houston where I just needed to show up and flying was the perfect answer. It really depends on what your schedule is when you get there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**carusoam** · October 21, 2020

Lots of discussion on using Uber and Lyft around here...

Every point of geography is going to be different...

The Uber thing has really opened up some opportunities...

Best regards,

-a-

Sign In

Purchasing a Mooney

Recommended Posts

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

gsxrpilot

irishpilot

irishpilot

Join the conversation

Members Online

Important Information