Here we go again...

[StevenL757]

Kinda' hard not to take advantage of upgrade discounts on some new hardware, so I started "round 2" of upgrades last week.  Time to complete is about 3 1/2 weeks...with most of that waiting for JPI to process the exchange, programming, and shipping of an EDM930.  They took my EDM900 in exchange for what I paid for it 4 years ago under a "Sun 'n Fun" special.

Things on the docket for this round...

• Trade up G500 for G500Txi
• Install GCU485 PFD controller
• Trade up GTN750 for GTN750xi
• Remove KX165, install GTN650xi
• Trade JPI EDM900 for EDM930
• Install Eaton lighted pushbutton to provide ARINC-429 GPS/NAV switching for ESI-500 backup ADI
• Add GSB15 USB charger underneath audio panel

Existing panel...

 

This looks surprisingly-familiar...

 

Dry-fitting new panel, showing GDU1060 and GCU485 PFD Controller...

 

Ready for shaping and clean-up before powder-coating

 

Old and new panels aligned.  Never realized how much bigger the GDU1060 is than the GDU620...

[khedrei]

I'm curious to know for the people who have upgraded the GTN650/750 to the Xi versions what they think. Was it worth it? Do you notice a big difference? I had already paid for my equipement so there was no sending it back but the new units came out a month or so before my install started. For a couple grand I would have done it. Once it was in stock the restocking fee would have made it not worth it. Would be the same to trade in now as pay the restocking fee. Hard to justify 8500+USD to get rid of two brand new units.  

[StevenL757]

I’ve only had the chance to fly behind a 750xi for a little less than an hour, and there’s certainly a noticeable difference with resolution, clarity, and overall screen sharpness. I still need to dig deeper into the manual and then go fly more to appreciate what it has to offer over its predecessor to give a proper pirep.  I had the original 750 installed 4 years ago, so if that time hadn’t passed, I’d be hard-pressed to spend money to upgrade it.

@donkaye has a well-written post somewhere in here talking about his experiences with this just recently.

Steve

 

[carusoam]

Great details, Steven!

Thanks for sharing them...

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye, MCFI]

15 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

I’ve only had the chance to fly behind a 750xi for a little less than an hour, and there’s certainly a noticeable difference with resolution, clarity, and overall screen sharpness. I still need to dig deeper into the manual and then go fly more to appreciate what it has to offer over its predecessor to give a proper pirep.  I had the original 750 installed 4 years ago, so if that time hadn’t passed, I’d be hard-pressed to spend money to upgrade it.

@donkaye has a well-written post somewhere in here talking about his experiences with this just recently.

Steve

 

A little update on the GTN 750 Xi upgrade.  I might have mentioned that the software is a little different in that there is a database icon on the startup screen to make updating easier.  The screen resolution is so much better.  With the regular GTN, when a Chart would zoom in during an approach it would become blocky and unreadable.  With the Xi it remains clear.  

OTOH, the "simple" upgrade turns out not to be so simple for me.  The touch screen is intermittent and the Comm transmitter is unacceptable to ATC.  I had noticed the need to tap one icon a couple of times on the way home from the install and also an ATC complaint, but I didn't give it too much attention at  that time.  Last Saturday I flew for the first time in a month for over 3 hours doing approaches and a little cross country.  I started getting complaints from every controller, 4-5 of them.  I started  running a test with them checking between the GTN 650 Xi and the 750 Xi.  Every one of them said the 650 was great but the 750 was not.  Being 3 hours away from the installer now becomes a problem.  I've got to deal with Garmin not wanting  to exchange for a new unit, and even before an exchange, needing to pay another avionics shop $$ to do a S/N ratio test on the present one or pay a restocking fee when a return becomes necessary.  Even if that were to be OK the intermittent touch screen requires some type of fix or an exchange no matter what.  This whole  process has turned out not to be any fun.

[chriscalandro]

There’s a long list of reasons I won’t buy any more Garmin products. You’ve added to that list and reiterated my rationale. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

14 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Kinda' hard not to take advantage of upgrade discounts on some new hardware, so I started "round 2" of upgrades last week.  Time to complete is about 3 1/2 weeks...with most of that waiting for JPI to process the exchange, programming, and shipping of an EDM930.  They took my EDM900 in exchange for what I paid for it 4 years ago under a "Sun 'n Fun" special.

Things on the docket for this round...

• Trade up G500 for G500Txi
• Install GCU485 PFD controller
• Trade up GTN750 for GTN750xi
• Remove KX165, install GTN650xi
• Trade JPI EDM900 for EDM930
• Install Eaton lighted pushbutton to provide ARINC-429 GPS/NAV switching for ESI-500 backup ADI
• Add GSB15 USB charger underneath audio panel

Your new panel looks great!  A couple of questions:  Why not do the upgrade to the GFC 500 now?  It's the perfect time, and could be done for under $20K with sale of the ESI 500 and KFC 150 autopilot parts.  If you did that, the only benefit of the GCU 485 would be easy access to Baro change.  I found the GCU 485 to be very useful for the month before the GFC 500 got approved for the long body Mooneys.  Had I known it would be approved so soon, I would not have put in the GCU 485.  There is absolutely no comparison between the KFC 150 and the GFC 500.  In addition to adding VNAV coupling capability, it has ESP and LVL, and  it is such a smooth AP.  Last weekend was very bumpy down low and the YD was just outstanding.

[ArtVandelay]

OTOH, the "simple" upgrade turns out not to be so simple for me.  The touch screen is intermittent and the Comm transmitter is unacceptable to ATC.  I had noticed the need to tap one icon a couple of times on the way home from the install and also an ATC complaint, but I didn't give it too much attention at  that time.  Last Saturday I flew for the first time in a month for over 3 hours doing approaches and a little cross country.  I started getting complaints from every controller, 4-5 of them.  I started  running a test with them checking between the GTN 650 Xi and the 750.  Every one of them said the 650 was great but the 750 was not.  Being 3 hours away from the installer now becomes a problem.  I've got to deal with Garmin not wanting  to exchange for a new unit, and even before an exchange, needing to pay another avionics shop $$ to do a S/N ratio test on the present one or pay a restocking fee when a return becomes necessary.  Even if that were to be OK the intermittent touch screen requires some type of fix or an exchange no matter what.  This whole  process has turned out not to be any fun.

I have had issues with new installations, they have always been avionics installation issues: bad circuit breaker, bent pin, and lose ground. The intermittent problems are the worst, I would post over on Beechtalk, see if others have had the same problems.

[StevenL757]

49 minutes ago, donkaye said:

A little update on the GTN 750 Xi upgrade.  I might have mentioned that the software is a little different in that there is that there is a database icon on the startup screen to make updating easier.  The screen resolution is so much better.  With the regular GTN, when a Chart would zoom in during an approach it would become blocky and unreadable.  With the Xi it remains clear.  

OTOH, the "simple" upgrade turns out not to be so simple for me.  The touch screen is intermittent and the Comm transmitter is unacceptable to ATC.  I had noticed the need to tap one icon a couple of times on the way home from the install and also an ATC complaint, but I didn't give it too much attention at  that time.  Last Saturday I flew for the first time in a month for over 3 hours doing approaches and a little cross country.  I started getting complaints from every controller, 4-5 of them.  I started  running a test with them checking between the GTN 650 Xi and the 750.  Every one of them said the 650 was great but the 750 was not.  Being 3 hours away from the installer now becomes a problem.  I've got to deal with Garmin not wanting  to exchange for a new unit, and even before an exchange, needing to pay another avionics shop $$ to do a S/N ratio test on the present one or pay a restocking fee when a return becomes necessary.  Even if that were to be OK the intermittent touch screen requires some type of fix or an exchange no matter what.  This whole  process has turned out not to be any fun.

I did notice the smoothness of screen transitioning and the lack of pixellation for the most part, but first I've heard about any comms issues and also a screen tapping issue.  I do know I've experienced (like others here) sporadic times when my KX165 comm is clearer than my 750's comm, but again, those instances have been very sporadic and not specific to any one place in the country.

You mention checking comms between units...are you checking between an "Xi to Xi" unit, or "Xi to non-Xi"?  Wasn't clear whether you had one Xi unit installed and the other was a non-Xi, or if you upgraded both.  Either way, I'll discuss with my shop and see if they have any visibility into this stuff.  Thanks as always, Don.

Steve

[donkaye, MCFI]

16 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

I did notice the smoothness of screen transitioning and the lack of pixellation for the most part, but first I've heard about any comms issues and also a screen tapping issue.  I do know I've experienced (like others here) sporadic times when my KX165 comm is clearer than my 750's comm, but again, those instances have been very sporadic and not specific to any one place in the country.

You mention checking comms between units...are you checking between an "Xi to Xi" unit, or "Xi to non-Xi"?  Wasn't clear whether you had one Xi unit installed and the other was a non-Xi, or if you upgraded both.  Either way, I'll discuss with my shop and see if they have any visibility into this stuff.  Thanks as always, Don.

Steve

I corrected it above.  They were both Xi units  that I was switching between.  The 650 Xi was good, the 750 Xi was no good.

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

Your new panel looks great!  A couple of questions:  Why not do the upgrade to the GFC 500 now?  It's the perfect time, and could be done for under $20K with sale of the ESI 500 and KFC 150 autopilot parts.  If you did that, the only benefit of the GCU 485 would be easy access to Baro change.  I found the GCU 485 to be very useful for the month before the GFC 500 got approved for the long body Mooneys.  Had I known it would be approved so soon, I would not have put in the GCU 485.  There is absolutely no comparison between the KFC 150 and the GFC 500.  In addition to adding VNAV coupling capability, it has ESP and LVL, and  it is such a smooth AP.  Last weekend was very bumpy down low and the YD was just outstanding.

Yeah, good point.  I've been tossing the autopilot upgrade question and options around for a few years now.  Decided to hold off for now, as I can't reconcile a few things with each of the options I've look at (KFC230 and the GFC500).  As I've always maintained, if the GFC600 were an option, I'd have written the check already.  My shop is prepared to buy back the GCU485 and give me the best pricing and installation flexibility if I decide to go with the GFC500 in the short-to-medium timeframe, but I'm still holding onto what's probably a very thin string in hopes they'll eventually put the Ovation on the "approved" list for the -600.

Although my KFC150 is a great autopilot, it won't last forever, so I'm probably postponing the inevitable.

[StevenL757]

9 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I corrected it above.  They were both Xi units  that I was switching between.  The 650 Xi was good, the 750 Xi was no good.

Ok, gotcha.  Can I assume you've gone through the usual troubleshooting (switching comm cables behind the racks, put both units on the bench and checked XMIT power, etc.)?

[donkaye, MCFI]

 

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

Ok, gotcha.  Can I assume you've gone through the usual troubleshooting (switching comm cables behind the racks, put both units on the bench and checked XMIT power, etc.)?

Like I said above.  Different Garmin shop locally this Thursday $$$.  I should not have had to do this.  The previous 750 worked just fine with the cables and antennas as they were.

[donkaye, MCFI]

37 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Yeah, good point.  I've been tossing the autopilot upgrade question and options around for a few years now.  Decided to hold off for now, as I can't reconcile a few things with each of the options I've look at (KFC230 and the GFC500).  As I've always maintained, if the GFC600 were an option, I'd have written the check already.  My shop is prepared to buy back the GCU485 and give me the best pricing and installation flexibility if I decide to go with the GFC500 in the short-to-medium timeframe, but I'm still holding onto what's probably a very thin string in hopes they'll eventually put the Ovation on the "approved" list for the -600.

Although my KFC150 is a great autopilot, it won't last forever, so I'm probably postponing the inevitable.

Several years ago Garmin told me they will not certify the GFC 600 for the Mooney.  The KFC 230 still would use the heavy old BK servos, you have to have them all checked out as good before they will warranty them ($$$), when they do go bad they are very expensive to refurbish, and BK is just a plain unreliable company now.  l just wouldn't consider the KFC 230.  Also, a lot more if you wanted to add the YD servo.  Getting rid of the GCU 485 later means another panel change and another couple of thousand dollars later like I had to pay.  In my opinion you should do the GFC 500 now and enjoy it for now and not later.  You'll save the cost of the GCU 485 and another panel cost.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

Yeah, good point.  I've been tossing the autopilot upgrade question and options around for a few years now.  Decided to hold off for now, as I can't reconcile a few things with each of the options I've look at (KFC230 and the GFC500).  As I've always maintained, if the GFC600 were an option, I'd have written the check already.  My shop is prepared to buy back the GCU485 and give me the best pricing and installation flexibility if I decide to go with the GFC500 in the short-to-medium timeframe, but I'm still holding onto what's probably a very thin string in hopes they'll eventually put the Ovation on the "approved" list for the -600.

Although my KFC150 is a great autopilot, it won't last forever, so I'm probably postponing the inevitable.

After Garmin has started to see saturation on the GFC500 they would be crazy not to start expanding the airframes for the GFC600. Garmin doesn't like to leave any money on the table. At Oshkosh in 2019 I asked if the GFC600 was ever going to be a possibility for long body Mooneys, the Garmin rep smiled at me and said "You never know". I asked if they needed a long body Mooney for certification, he said why not fill out the form on the website. "You never know."

[donkaye, MCFI]

13 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

After Garmin has started to see saturation on the GFC500 they would be crazy not to start expanding the airframes for the GFC600. Garmin doesn't like to leave any money on the table. At Oshkosh in 2019 I asked if the GFC600 was ever going to be a possibility for long body Mooneys, the Garmin rep smiled at me and said "You never know". I asked if they needed a long body Mooney for certification, he said why not fill out the form on the website. "You never know."

Even if the GFC 600 were available today, I'd still go for the GFC 500.  The GFC 600's parts alone are more than $10,000 more than the GFC 500 and its servos are overkill for our airplanes.  I think a 4 servo installation would be over $40,000.  Not necessary.

[Neshi]

@StevenL757 Wish I took the time to see yours I was too excited picking up and doing the test flight for mine.

Rick and the team did great work for me would love to see how yours turns out.

[StevenL757]

He mentioned you guys flew this week.  Very happy things out so well for you; but not surprised, as their work is top-notch.  There are many reasons I continue to go back to them.

[PTK]

5 hours ago, donkaye said:

There is absolutely no comparison between the KFC 150 and the GFC 500.  In addition to adding VNAV coupling capability, it has ESP and LVL, and  it is such a smooth AP.

Don, I assume prior to GFC500 you had the KFC150 with vacuum KI256 and then the GAD43(E)? If so would you mind commenting on any differences you noticed in the autopilot between the vacuum ADI and the GAD? In other words does the GAD make a noticeable difference over the vacuum attitude reference? Was the KFC any different or “better” in your opinion with the GAD?
I’m in a similar dilemma in that my KFC150 is in perfect condition.  If it was asking for money that’s one thing but its not and I just can’t justify replacing it.
Thanks

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Don, I assume prior to GFC500 you had the KFC150 with vacuum KI256 and then the GAD43(E)? If so would you mind commenting on any differences you noticed in the autopilot between the vacuum ADI and the GAD? In other words does the GAD make a noticeable difference over the vacuum attitude reference? Was the KFC any different or “better” in your opinion with the GAD?
I’m in a similar dilemma in that my KFC150 is in perfect condition.  If it was asking for money that’s one thing but its not and I just can’t justify replacing it.
Thanks

If you’re on the fence, the gad43 non E is cheap and doesn’t require an unlock ($500 ish plus install). It would give you most of the capability and not feel like a total waste of money if you go gfc500 in the future. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Don, I assume prior to GFC500 you had the KFC150 with vacuum KI256 and then the GAD43(E)? If so would you mind commenting on any differences you noticed in the autopilot between the vacuum ADI and the GAD? In other words does the GAD make a noticeable difference over the vacuum attitude reference? Was the KFC any different or “better” in your opinion with the GAD?
I’m in a similar dilemma in that my KFC150 is in perfect condition.  If it was asking for money that’s one thing but its not and I just can’t justify replacing it.
Thanks

Originally I had the KI256, then the G500 with GAD 43e.  The KI256 was used in conjunction with the BK EFIS 40 and the older, but outstanding, KLN 90B.  I skipped the GNS series of GPSs.  Pre WAAS the GPSs had full scale deflection of 5 nm.  The WAAS GPSs have 2 nm full scale.  The reason this is important  to say is because with my original setup the  KFC 150 worked perfectly.  If I had a WAAS GPS it may have had the problem that I am about to discuss.  When I did my upgrade to the G500 with the GAD 43e In all modes other than GPSS I had wing rock that I spent thousands of dollars trying to get rid of.  The higher resolution lateral navigation of the GTNs with the digital to analog interface was more than the KFC 150 could handle.  I never did get rid of the wing rock.  So, I can't say how it would have handled a WAAS GPS with the KI 256.  All I can say is that it was totally unsatisfactory with the G500/GAD 43e interface.  Luckily, I was in GPSS mode most of the time, and what a relief to get the GFC 500 autopilot.

[Rmag]

For what it’s worth, I have a G500 TXi with GAD43E and the KFC 150.  It’s been rock solid, no wing sock like Don dealt with.  It’s not better than a GFC 500 on features, but I can’t bring myself to pulling the trigger when my KFC is working so well.  Rest assured as soon as I ever have a major repair on the KFC and once the GI 275 is certified to drive it, I’m going GFC 500. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

 

18 hours ago, Rmag said:

For what it’s worth, I have a G500 TXi with GAD43E ad the KFC 150.  It’s been rock solid, no wing sock like Don dealt with.  It’s not better than a GFC 500 on features, but I can’t bring myself to pulling the trigger when my KFC is working so well.  Rest assured as soon as I ever have a major repair on the KFC and once the GI 275 is certified to drive it, I’m going GFC 500. 

Two different models of airplanes.  Possibly the problem.

[Neshi]

5 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

He mentioned you guys flew this week.  Very happy things out so well for you; but not surprised, as their work is top-notch.  There are many reasons I continue to go back to them.

Yup ether for Christmas or birthday I'm already looking at going back to pull the other panel and add a EDM-930.

[StevenL757]

On 6/16/2020 at 10:11 PM, Neshi said:

Yup ether for Christmas or birthday I'm already looking at going back to pull the other panel and add a EDM-930.

Good call.