Gear Up Landings

[KB4]

My bitchin Betty just repeats herself over and over "Check gear" Just testing the system annoys the ears.  No way a pilot that can hear would land gear up with mine.  She's a B.  Prices went way up.  I paid 495 now it's 1595.  http://www.flyingsafer.com/landing-gear-warning-systems.html

[Seymour]

4 hours ago, tmo said:

OK, I'll bite - is the "flaps before gear" approach due to speed limitations in the earlier Mooneys, or is there some reasoning behind it?  My M20K POH has noticeably higher speeds for gear down (132 KIAS) than for flaps (112 KIAS) and I'd always do gear first, flaps later as needed. 

Hmmm....    Haven't heard that before. 

65 M20E gear speed is 104 KIAS and the top of the white arc is ~87 KIAS.    My gear horn sounds at a MAP of ~14.    I drop the gear long before putting in flaps. 

[markgrue]

I drop the gear on downwind midfield or about 3 miles out on straight in.  I find it very difficult to slow down enough to put the flaps down without putting gear down first.  120 mph gear speed and 100 flap speed.  I usually land with half flaps just to be a little easier on the gear.

 

Mark

[Hank]

4 hours ago, tmo said:

OK, I'll bite - is the "flaps before gear" approach due to speed limitations in the earlier Mooneys, or is there some reasoning behind it?  My M20K POH has noticeably higher speeds for gear down (132 KIAS) than for flaps (112 KIAS) and I'd always do gear first, flaps later as needed.  FWIW, I've been told gear goes down on downwind / abeam threshold.

Vfe = 125 mph; Vg = 120 mph.

I drop flaps first because it slows me down but doesn't do much else beside point the nose lower and require a (large) trim adjustment. Dropping gear doesn't make much of a pitch change, but it does start a fairly constant-speed descent with only a touch of nose down trim. Haven't ever tried using the gear as brakes, so not sure how well that would work.

Dropping the gear, and not touching anything else, initiates a nice IFR descent at 90 knots / 105 mph. Doing so while the needle is still a dot-and-a-half high will bring me right down with the glideslope needle dead center, too. Yes, this is with Takeoff Flaps already out, which really stabilizes the plane at that relatively low speed, too.

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, Ibra said:

 

I still don't get the reasons why gear extension and retraction speeds are different? and why no such difference in the max speed to extend and retract flaps? (apart from the obvious VS1-VS0) 

Structural strength...

The steel gear legs are attached to much stronger parts of the plane, then the aluminum flaps...

Boosting flap strength would put a giant dent in the UL.

The Long bodies were built from the experience of all the Mooneys that came before...

Gear speeds are pretty fast... if you need to slow down, use the gear...  way too fast, you may lose the gear doors, but you have decided they are optional when going this route... 

Use some caution with manual gear... above Vle... the doors act as a sail... and rip the gear down... while flinging the J-bar through the cabin...

Extra important in the memory department...

Use extra caution when doing multiple trips around the pattern...  don’t rely on remembering that you put the gear down.  That memory from a few minutes ago may get substituted/blended/mixed with a memory 15minutes before... under the right amount of rushed multi-tasking...

PP thoughts only, not an aero engineer...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ibra]

10 hours ago, EricJ said:

On a J the aero load tries to pull the gear down, so the load dynamics on the motor and drive are different between going up and going down

Thanks, so high speed retraction is more the max load in electric motor than the structural design of gear
Yes, I expect aero to be skewed on gear but never come to mind that forces are actually pulling down

For flaps, it seems extension/retraction aero forces are always symmetric given that the aircraft naturally balances itself along a combined wing+flap cord line

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

Use extra caution when doing multiple trips around the pattern...  don’t rely on remembering that you put the gear down.  That memory from a few minutes ago may get substituted/blended/mixed with a memory 15minutes before... under the right amount of rushed multi-tasking...

Good advice, I fly the Mooney between nearby airfields (maintenance & joining some guys) sometimes extending departure pattern put me right in arrival pattern: it was always hectic and I never felt on top of it (even other way around in a Cub was tough to manage), so we set a new rule: in air keep takeoff climb config (e.g. flap, gear, mixture) for any short flight less than 15min and fly throttle only (full prop +/-200rpm) and 100kts speed watching other traffic, my guess is fuel & engine management impact is zero anyway?

On a short 15min flight/stop one is probably better off touching only master and RT flip-flop: fiddling with prop, gear, fuel-flow, MFD buttons...is probably too much: without EDM Lean Find, I need 4min to find peak EGT, 5min to reach best power cruise speed and 5 min to slow down to approach speed, so I am left with 1min to drop/raise the gear

Edited February 19, 2020 by Ibra

[Schllc]

Maybe it’s part of how one was trained from the beginning, I always knew I was going to have a plane with retractable gear so gumps started in some of my first lessons leading to ppl. 
once I got a mooney (long body experience only), I quickly found that the only way I could get to approach speeds without starting to slow down 50 miles away was to put the gear down.  One of my early instructors taught me a method used by airline pilots to arrange your approach at a 3 mild 300’ per mile descent to stay on the gp.
speed down to gear extension, by 3 miles, first notch of flaps,second notch of flaps and check progress by distance and altitude. This is nearly impossible to do correctly with gear up, unless you work hard. Hence it doesn’t feel “normal”. Pay attention to the gut.. 
I can’t for the life of me, understand how one slows down enough to these speeds without the Gear down. Maybe the older, four cylinder models behave differently  but in a long body I find it very difficult. 
 

[ArtVandelay]

I can’t for the life of me, understand how one slows down enough to these speeds without the Gear down. Maybe the older, four cylinder models behave differently  but in a long body I find it very difficult. 

Ditto for the J, especially because of the power limitation that most J have (>15 MP)

[Ibra]

14 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Ditto for the J, especially because of the power limitation that most J have (>15 MP)

Yes, on the J the RPM/MP limitation and thermal engine management (I know shock cooling is a myth blablablah ) does force you to drag gear down in decent

[bradp]

How does the principle of normalization of deviance fit into gear ups?

One example is lack of response to a gear warning horn or a SOP that routinely creates a gear warning horn.  This is something that  @midlifeflyer taught me on my last BFR

Other examples? 

Brad  

[Greg Ellis]

On 2/17/2020 at 5:42 PM, jlunseth said:

I have a thought on that.  I have noticed that quite a lot of Mooney pilots put the gear down at the last minute, either on downwind in the pattern or just before the airport.  I have even heard that taught.  The theory is you have a Mooney, why not use it to go fast until the last minute.  Of course, that fails to consider that the pattern is full of distractions, another aircraft on base, someone not getting off the ground fast enough, an amended instruction from the controller, the list is endless.  I put the gear down no closer than six miles out.  It lets me slow the plane down from cruise to approach speed, I do it before all the distractions start happening, and if I fail to do it I have two or three more chances to catch it, on downwind, on base, and on final.  I check all three times.  And if you forget all the checks your airplane's unwillingness to slow down will remind you, if you give it a little time to remind you.  Dropping the gear on short final, hot pilot that you are in that Mooney, will sooner or later get you.

In one way or another it has been stated on this thread but I will add my 2 cents...for some model Mooneys, extending gear 6 miles out may be just fine but for my 1963 C model my gear speed is 120mph/104kts and my flap speed is 100mph/86kts.  I am not going to chug along for 6 miles or more at 104kts indicated which depending on winds could be far less ground speed.  I do agree that putting the gear down on final is not wise.

[midlifeflyer]

21 minutes ago, bradp said:

How does the principle of normalization of deviance fit into gear ups?

One example is lack of response to a gear warning horn or a SOP that routinely creates a gear warning horn.  This is something that  @midlifeflyer taught me on my last BFR

Other examples? 

Brad  

Glad I was able to teach you something

[midlifeflyer]

9 minutes ago, Greg Ellis said:

In one way or another it has been stated on this thread but I will add my 2 cents...for some model Mooneys, extending gear 6 miles out may be just fine but for my 1963 C model my gear speed is 120mph/104kts and my flap speed is 100mph/86kts.  I am not going to chug along for 6 miles or more at 104kts indicated which depending on winds could be far less ground speed.  I do agree that putting the gear down on final is not wise.

There's a balance and my procedure may be different than yours. The important thing is that it is repeatable, reasonable, and can be consistently applied. 
 

I might be unusual in this but I don't like to impose my gear procedure on someone else.  Even when I give complex transition training, I ask, "you've been online where people have discussed putting the gear down. Have you come to any conclusions about how you think you want to do it?"

[bradp]

7 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Glad I was able to teach you something

We can’t stop learning new stuff.  Would be like a shark that stopped swimming. 

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

In one way or another it has been stated on this thread but I will add my 2 cents...for some model Mooneys, extending gear 6 miles out may be just fine but for my 1963 C model my gear speed is 120mph/104kts and my flap speed is 100mph/86kts.  I am not going to chug along for 6 miles or more at 104kts indicated which depending on winds could be far less ground speed.  I do agree that putting the gear down on final is not wise.

We'll have agree to disagree.  I want my gear down well before I hit the probably chaotic and possibly distracting landing pattern.  I usually have my airplane dirtied up before I enter the downwind, or whatever other pattern I'm using.  Takes an extra couple minutes, but to me that's a good investment in not pranging my airplane.

[Ibra]

Building habits and consistency is good and bad, military tend to fly visual oval pattern and are told to drop gear/flap based on rate of their airspeed bleed on downwind before breaking to final using a half turn, all that works well until you start flying long final with stable speed on radar, so a standard ATC practice on PAR approach is to remind you about the gear 2nm from touchdown

I guess the same go for getting used to drop gear down when flying a rectangular pattern on constant speed?

ATC could really help on this topic: give wind check and gear warning

Edited February 19, 2020 by Ibra

[midlifeflyer]

46 minutes ago, Ibra said:

Building habits and consistency is good and bad, military tend to fly visual oval pattern and are told to drop gear/flap based on rate of their airspeed bleed on downwind before breaking to final using a half turn, all that works well until you start flying long final with stable speed on radar, so a standard ATC practice on PAR approach is to remind you about the gear 2nm from touchdown

I guess the same go for getting used to drop gear down when flying a rectangular pattern on constant speed?

ATC could really help on this topic: give wind check and gear warning

Yeah, but "on downwind" is not "consistency" for the exact reason you mention. Visual approaches come from various points. You might approach  from a base leg or straight in or on an ATC "direct to the numbers" instruction,

But don't assume those who say "on downwind" aren't actually using it as a shorthand for distance and essentially "unfold" the legs of the pattern when coming in from another direction. A "normal" 1 mile-1 mile-1mile abeam-base-final becomes a 3-mile straight/direct to in or a 2-mile base. That's what I've found when I've asked the question and watched trainees (who know what they are doing) fly.

 

[M20F-1968]

23 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

I think for me, this would likely lead to a GU landing rather than prevent it.  The closest I've come to a GU so far was during my transition training.  Instead of the usual depart the pattern, go somewhere, enter the pattern, we were did a go-around.  After takeoff, I forgot to put the gear up.  Then at my normal point at midfield downwind, I grabbed the Johnson bar and moved it to the other position.  My instructor waited a few moments to see if I would catch the error and then asked if I really wanted my gear up for landing.

Now that I have a routine of putting gear down at midfield downwind, if I start putting it down 6 miles out would I at some point move the handle the wrong direction at my normal gear down point?  I think I would be at a high risk for that until the 6 mile gear drop became my new normal.

For those of us with Johnson Bars, we all need to tug down on the J-bar handle to be sure it is locked in place.  If you do this routinely (and you should) this will insure that you are checking a gear down and locked condition.  I was taught to put the gear down mid-field on downwind (or abeam the numbers) and at the FAF on ILS approach.  If trimmed properly, the gear down should set-up a 3% descent (or about 500 ft per min).   I was also taught to do it the same every time.

John Breda

[jlunseth]

5 hours ago, Ibra said:

Good advice, I fly the Mooney between nearby airfields (maintenance & joining some guys) sometimes extending departure pattern put me right in arrival pattern: it was always hectic and I never felt on top of it (even other way around in a Cub was tough to manage), so we set a new rule: in air keep takeoff climb config (e.g. flap, gear, mixture) for any short flight less than 15min and fly throttle only (full prop +/-200rpm) and 100kts speed watching other traffic, my guess is fuel & engine management impact is zero anyway?

On a short 15min flight/stop one is probably better off touching only master and RT flip-flop: fiddling with prop, gear, fuel-flow, MFD buttons...is probably too much: without EDM Lean Find, I need 4min to find peak EGT, 5min to reach best power cruise speed and 5 min to slow down to approach speed, so I am left with 1min to drop/raise the gear

I might suggest you reconsider.  Your method of not raising the gear certainly is safe for your short flights, no question.  The issue with it, is that it builds the habit of not dropping or checking the gear on every landing. So then one day you go on a longer trip and because of distraction or just not thinking you default to your habitual landing that assumes the gear is down but it is not.  I raise the gear and flaps on every takeoff, and then on every landing I go through LCB GUMPS (Lights-Cowl Flaps-Boost Pumps).  Then I check the gear on downwind, on base, and on final.  I even run the LCB GUMPS list on the infrequent occasions when I am in a rental or instructional plane that has fixed gear, going through the motion of dropping the gear, and I use the same strategy during pattern work, that is, lift the gear on takeoff and run LCB GUMPS on downwind. This makes the routine the same every time. In your short flight situation I would not consider fuel burn, the difference is going to be small, but rather would focus on building unvarying, bulletproof habits. 

But you are the pilot and it is your aircraft, whatever works best for you. If the traffic is routinely heavy between your two airports and you run into distractions immediately on takeoff, that is certainly a good reason to do it your way. Maybe the best method would be to leave the gear down, but run LCB GUMPS on every landing, which would force a gear check at least on downwind.

As far as power settings are concerned, I did an extensive amount of experimentation to find a LOP setting that worked well.  Now I don't bother trying to find a peak, I just put in that setting, which is 34"/2450/11.1 GPH. If the engine needs further management I adjust fuel flow by TIT.  I have a 231, hence the MP. In a J if you want to fly LOP, wouldn't it work to just firewall the throttle, and then at cruise altitude leave the throttle alone (Wide Open Throttle) and pull the fuel back to whatever setting you find gives you a good lean of peak? WOTLOPSOP . Simple and only one control to move, it can be done quickly.

[Ibra]

24 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Yeah, but "on downwind" is not "consistency" for the exact reason you mention. Visual approaches come from various points. You might approach  from a base leg or straight in or on an ATC "direct to the numbers" instruction,essentially "unfold" the legs of the pattern when coming in from another direction

In the race track pattern upwind/downwind/base/final are blurry, visual circuit is split in term of getting speed or breaking, so the gear up/down just comes naturally   

Yes, I agree the hard bit is to keep that logic going when you "unfold" the legs to a 2nm final straight line or any "non-standard flight shape" for that matter

I know of two cases where "non-standard flight path" was the main cause:
- School instruction where crew were asked by ATC to orbit on base leg to allow for an IFR arrival, they decided to raise the gear and then landed without
- A friend flew a short 40min on Z plan (VFR/IFR), saw the runway between the gaps and cancelled his IFR and went straight to numbers landing without

Also lot of gliders unplanned field landings do happen gear up (those with no airbreak horn corrected to their gear) but at 1000ft agl the gear struggle is real: raise it and try to climb or lower it and land, but many get forced to land while trying to climb, so their gear is up

[Ibra]

15 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

So then one day you go on a longer trip and because of distraction or just not thinking you default to your habitual landing that assumes the gear is down but it is not

On longer trips I tend to have enough time to run over a proper checklist and my default process, this involve getting rid of the gear really early and checking it later in circuit phases like you (I put a reminder on the top ASI but I am looking to add one on engine cowling ), it is only on short/training flights where I fall short of ideas: checklist has to be kept short and from memory and it gets hard to notice the ASI sticker (only time when I heard horn when I don't expect it was a 20min flight)

 

[gsxrpilot]

I figure Gear is the one and only required item on my before landing check list. Therefore it's the only item. It's a pretty short check list. Everything else is on condition from flap setting to crab angle. But gear is the one thing always required regardless of conditions.

[jlunseth]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I figure Gear is the one and only required item on my before landing check list. Therefore it's the only item. It's a pretty short check list. Everything else is on condition from flap setting to crab angle. But gear is the one thing always required regardless of conditions.

True.  My home airport is a D inside a B veil, so landing light is a necessity.  Not a regulatory requirement but a necessity, to be seen.  Of the rest, Undercarriage is most important to us Mooney flyers.  Rare that Gas is a factor, there is usually enough of that.

Ibra, in the US we are all trained to do GUMPS.  I do LCB GUMPS.  I learned it in Private Pilot lessons and it is so endemic my aural alert system came pre-programmed to say “GUMPS Check” at a certain altitude agl (I think it is 500 feet). We drill it until we know it in our sleep and beyond, at least that is what I do.  

Lights (landing light on)

Cowl Flaps (closed - or could be Carb Heat for some NA aircraft)

Boost Pumps (off for my aircraft)

Gas (switch to fullest tank)

Undercarriage (gear down, hand on the switch until the light(s) are green)

Mixture

Prop(s) (full forward)

Seat Belts

Takes must 1-2 minutes to run the whole list.

[MooneyMitch]

The point of the all this, is NOT to do it!  Whatever method works for you, and it appears we all have our methods, is to prevent it from happening to us.

Nobody wants to do it!  I've done it [mechanical issue, so I view it as I'm still in the category of those that have and those that will].

I can tell you it is an emotional low point in doing it.  Hearing your beautiful Mooney scraping along the asphalt [my experience].  Also, the visual of your beauty sitting flat on the runway is sickening!

I don't know which is worse.  The shock of it happening without knowing it's going to happen, or as in my case, knowing what was coming and then having it happen !

Good luck to me and to all !

[epsalant]

I'm curious, in the pattern how many accidents have people heard of from forgetting GMPS-almost all I have heard of are from U (UNDERCARRIAGE). Although, to be fair, the accidents generally do not lead to injury just financial insult....

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