Primary Category

[59Moonster]

10 hours ago, Flybeech21 said:

My draft STC states that I will continue to maintain my aircraft IAW the Mooney maintenance manual and will conduct 100HR and Annual Inspections.

Why say both and not just the annual? Also how does your friends STC streamline your process?

[Flybeech21]

48 minutes ago, 59Moonster said:

Why say both and not just the annual? Also how does your friends STC streamline your process?

I am going to do both because I am want to be able to offer it for rent.  But to your point, the STC wording will state the 100HRs will be required if the airplane is rented.

Having a previously FAA approved STC/Field approval is considered approved data when you apply for your own STC/Field approval.  It also makes the approving entity more comfortable with giving their stamp of approval.  "If those guys said it's ok, then its ok with me" type mentality.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Flybeech21
didn't answer both questions

[carusoam]

Check with your insurance company...

See if there is any hurdles there...

We have an insurance guy around here if you want to ask...?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Flybeech21]

I just read my policy and it says as long as it is certificated in other than restricted or experimental.  

Primary is not either restricted or experimental.  The main point is that it didn't say "must be certificated with a standard airworthiness certificate."

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, Flybeech21 said:

The main point is that it didn't say "must be certificated with a standard airworthiness certificate."

They probably don't know it's a thing... it's probably better not to ask.

[Flybeech21]

So actually, deeper in the fine print there is language that says you must have a valid standard category airworthiness certificate.  

Of course, when I spoke with my insurance agent he said: "uhhhh, we have never heard of this before."  They requested a written explanation and wanted a copy of my certification plan.  

The result???  The effect on my premium is nil.  The only change is that there will be no open pilot clause.  All pilots must be named like on most experimental aircraft. 

[Austintatious]

On 1/28/2020 at 2:57 PM, 1964-M20E said:

Well a good discussion but this will rule out all of our M20s unless you put floats on the Mooney.  I guess if you make the floats easy to remove like snow skis put them on get the certificate and the remove them only to put them on once a year for annual inspection. 

(ii) Weighs not more than 2,700 pounds; or, for seaplanes, not more than 3,375 pounds;

interesting, they didn't say "has a MGTOW of 2700 lbs or less" 

[Flybeech21]

Update.

See the attached STC for the transition.

I think I should have my STC within the week or so.

 

 

[markgrue]

what supporting documentation did you have to submit with the application?.  I am thinking of following the same thing and looking for any help I can get. 

Thanks

Mark

[Flybeech21]

I will be glad to forward everything to you once I complete the process.  

[chriscalandro]

What ended up being the restrictions on this?  I’m interested in this project. 
 

it really does seem like a no brainer and potentially adds a lot of value to older airplanes. 

Edited April 15, 2020 by chriscalandro

[cliffy]

24 minutes ago, Flybeech21 said:

I will be glad to forward everything to you once I complete the process.  

It's nice to know that there are some nice people in this world!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Tip of the Hat!!!!!

[carusoam]

That happened really quickly compared to expectations... 

Quick question... the doc mentions M20C... your avatar mentions M20E?

Or did I miss something?

Congrats on getting through so many of the hoops!

Best regards,

-a-

[markgrue]

59 minutes ago, Flybeech21 said:

I will be glad to forward everything to you once I complete the process.  

That would be great!!!   I look forward to it.  I have been following this thread with great interest.

 

Mark

[Flybeech21]

50 minutes ago, carusoam said:

That happened really quickly compared to expectations... 

Quick question... the doc mentions M20C... your avatar mentions M20E?

Or did I miss something?

Congrats on getting through so many of the hoops!

Best regards,

-a-

It's my friend's M20C.  He just completed the process.   I am about to take all of his paperwork and tell them to do the same for me.  

I think this is the first Mooney that has ever transitioned.  If my process goes flawlessly, then it opens the door for all < 2700 lb Mooney owners to do the same.

[msh9]

I am intrigued by this. I would love to hear how your process goes and if successful would certainly be interested in doing this for my own.

Once question though, @Flybeech21 I saw earlier in the thread you mentioned doing this in part to access different avionics. I have a feeling that I'm just failing at reading comprehension, but I don't understand how swapping over to the primary category special airworthiness cert from the standard makes this easier. Is it that the primary category certificate does not require to keep to the aircraft to the original type design?

 

--Edit--

Reread the thread and saw you're planning on adding it to the STC. Now I am doubly curious about your process and what you end up doing. Good luck!

Edited April 15, 2020 by msh9

[M20C]

On 3/1/2020 at 10:09 AM, Flybeech21 said:

A little update on how things are going.

A friend of mine is in the final stages of getting another one of his airplanes placed in the Primary Category.  He has one already.

The ACO he is dealing with told him: "we don't do that anymore" and basically refused to do the Primary category cert.  He insisted that the process exists in Federal Regulations and that they can't decide to not do it.  After some back and forth, they agreed to do it and are now finalizing.

So, yes this is a viable option.  It was the FAA's first attempt to ease financial burden for general aviation.  It didn't take off because of the training requirement for owners to do preventive maintenance that exceeds what is defined in part 43.  

 

 

 

My M20C is now in the Primary Category.  Many of you are correct in that you still need an A&P to do maintenance and a 100 hour for flight instruction/rental. An A&P I/A is required to do the annual inspection.

The big advantage is I am now responsible for any modifications to the airplane.  If I should desire to return the airplane to the Standard Airworthiness Category, I am keeping a separate airpframe logbook of any un-approved modifications.  These will need to be either removed or approved (stc and or 337) before applying for a Standard Airworthiness Category Certificate should I ever desire one.

I won't!

I have a UAvionics (non-TSO'd) ads-b for starters....4 into one tuned exhaust, ram air induction and electronic ignition are next...

[M20C]

On 3/2/2020 at 4:58 PM, Parker_Woodruff said:

I would hesitate for resale purposes.

I have been offered over $50,000 for my Primary Category Cessna 150 several times... not worried at all about resale!

 

[M20C]

On 3/17/2020 at 9:21 AM, 59Moonster said:

Why say both and not just the annual? Also how does your friends STC streamline your process?

The 100 hour is only required if the airplane is used in a flying club or for flight training.

[MoonFlyer68]

2 hours ago, M20C said:

My M20C is now in the Primary Category.  Many of you are correct in that you still need an A&P to do maintenance and a 100 hour for flight instruction/rental. An A&P I/A is required to do the annual inspection.

The big advantage is I am now responsible for any modifications to the airplane.  If I should desire to return the airplane to the Standard Airworthiness Category, I am keeping a separate airpframe logbook of any un-approved modifications.  These will need to be either removed or approved (stc and or 337) before applying for a Standard Airworthiness Category Certificate should I ever desire one.

I won't!

I have a UAvionics (non-TSO'd) ads-b for starters....4 into one tuned exhaust, ram air induction and electronic ignition are next...

So if I am understanding you right you could have an A&P install a uncertified autopilot into your airplane with you being the approval authority and not the FAA?  No 337's needed and no field approvals?  If that is correct, what if you wanted to install a new engine could you do that with an A&P and still be "primary category" or would you still have to go "experimental"?

[cliffy]

2 hours ago, M20C said:

I have been offered over $50,000 for my Primary Category Cessna 150 several times... not worried at all about resale!

 

If this holds true over the Mooney fleet then it could spell salvation for many lower value vintage Mooney owners. 

Just think- the ability to safely and legally utilize avionics that the Experimental fleet has been able to do all along. 

There's a posting of mine from long ago here on MS proposing that the FAA allow an airplane to be maintained in a "certified" manner as it has been all along BUT allow "uncertified" electronics to be used in an effort to salvage lower value vintage airplanes and bring them up to current safety standards in avionics

The safe airframe never changes, Safety increases with the use of modern avionics and instruments. This could be a game changer!

[markgrue]

2 hours ago, M20C said:

My M20C is now in the Primary Category.  Many of you are correct in that you still need an A&P to do maintenance and a 100 hour for flight instruction/rental. An A&P I/A is required to do the annual inspection.

The big advantage is I am now responsible for any modifications to the airplane.  If I should desire to return the airplane to the Standard Airworthiness Category, I am keeping a separate airpframe logbook of any un-approved modifications.  These will need to be either removed or approved (stc and or 337) before applying for a Standard Airworthiness Category Certificate should I ever desire one.

I won't!

I have a UAvionics (non-TSO'd) ads-b for starters....4 into one tuned exhaust, ram air induction and electronic ignition are next...

I am ready to change my C over to primary but I am not sure how to start the process.  Any information you can share would be most appreciated.

 

Mark

[carusoam]

Mark,

Start at the top of this thread... @Flybeech21 has detailed Half the process... there is another thread of his that has the other half...

It has taken a few weeks to get a better feeling for advantages/disadvantages... but it is getting clearer with every post...

Best regards,

-a-

[chriscalandro]

I have been searching through the regulations and I am failing to find anything that points to experimental avionics as being ok in a primary category aircraft. 
 

The only thing I can find about benefits of going this route are increased owner maintenance based on the documentation provided in the STC. 
 

can you please point to where the regulation states Modification is OK?  

[cliffy]

If all 4 pages are read in this thread you'l find that that subject has been explained previously. This conversion is being done through an STC.

In the STC,  a section is written that exempts the particular aircraft from having to use "approved or certified" electronics. The "Primary Category " rule does not specifically address this as it is done in writing your own STC.

This is the way I interpret what has been previously written here. 

If I'm wrong I'm sure the OP will be along to correct me. 

I am following this closely as I may do it myself and I am very grateful that someone is doing it and is willing to help others accomplish the same.