Accident in Johnson County Kansas Mooney M20 S

[carusoam]

Mike,

Do send Mr. Hunicutt my (our) best regards...

He is quite the hero.

He did everything right.

Best regards,

-a-

[Blue on Top]

10 hours ago, Hank said:

I don't think any GA single-engine piston planes have warnings like that . . . . It's all on the pilot to follow procedures and use the checklist.

Most of my takeoffs are Flaps Up. And I run WOT/2700 from the beginning of the runway to my final cruise altitude. How would the warning know when to start and when to stop? since I've never used a sea-level runway.

@Hank Takeoff warning systems use speed, landing gear position, WOW switches and throttle positions to determine that the airplane is not flying and on the ground.  Flap position, speed brake position, etc. are looked at and then sound the warning when the throttle advances past X position.  We all miss items on the checklists.

[Hank]

8 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

@Hank Takeoff warning systems use speed, landing gear position, WOW switches and throttle positions to determine that the airplane is not flying and on the ground.  Flap position, speed brake position, etc. are looked at and then sound the warning when the throttle advances past X position.  We all miss items on the checklists.

Exactly the type if things not found in SEP aircraft, due to part prices, system integration costs, certification costs, system complexity, weight and space.

There are exactly two (2) sensors on my Mooney that I am aware of:  a microswitch to detect landing gear down and locked, and a roller on the throttle cable inside the quadrant to detect low power and sound a horn if the gear aren't down.

There's nothing on the airspeed indicator, nothing on the flaps (both have nice pointer for the pilot to look at); nothing that I've ever controlled on the ground, in the air ir on the water had had a brake position indicator other than how my own legs and feet felt while applying them; can't comment on speed brakes as I don't have them.

How does your fancy electronic system handle a go around? Oh, that's right, theres that TOGA switch, more electronics to install and software to certify. And none of it will work with or vintage planes, there's no electronic controller other than what's inside the GPS . . . .

But it's an idea for new designs, to further raise sales price, development time and certification costs.

[MIm20c]

17 hours ago, k8n said:

N602TF at KGGG Aug 2019

I noticed when looking a few days ago that multiple trips to GGG were made over the past month. The exhaust fairings are removed but I can’t see any other prior damage from the low res picture. 

[Blue on Top]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

1) Exactly the type if things not found in SEP aircraft, due to part prices, system integration costs, certification costs, system complexity, weight and space.

2) There are exactly two (2) sensors on my Mooney that I am aware of:  a microswitch to detect landing gear down and locked, and a roller on the throttle cable inside the quadrant to detect low power and sound a horn if the gear aren't down.

3) There's nothing on the airspeed indicator, nothing on the flaps (both have nice pointer for the pilot to look at); nothing that I've ever controlled on the ground, in the air ir on the water had had a brake position indicator other than how my own legs and feet felt while applying them; can't comment on speed brakes as I don't have them.

4) How does your fancy electronic system handle a go around? Oh, that's right, theres that TOGA switch, more electronics to install and software to certify. And none of it will work with or vintage planes, there's no electronic controller other than what's inside the GPS . . . .

5) But it's an idea for new designs, to further raise sales price, development time and certification costs.

1) I have no intent to raise prices, costs, complexity, weight or space.  When you get to know me, you'll find out I am all about simple, inexpensive but real-world effectiveness.

2) You MAY also have (some models do) an airspeed switch to stop the pilot from raising the gear while on the ground.

3) If everything is mechanical, great!  Several people have commented that their flap position indicator hasn't worked in years.  I truly love an all mechanical airplane: flaps, gear, etc.  If the airplane is all mechanical, it's probably not a good choice to add electronics.

4) I am looking for safety enhancing equipment (yes, NORSEE in some cases) to save lives.  I'm tired of losing friends.  One or two oversights shouldn't cost lives.

5) @Hank  I appreciate your sarcasm.  I'm working hard to get rid of mine.  It causes me issues (friends of mine that are reading this thread are laughing their buns off right now), but I understand where you are coming from.

[Yetti]

11 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

@Hank Takeoff warning systems use speed, landing gear position, WOW switches and throttle positions to determine that the airplane is not flying and on the ground.  Flap position, speed brake position, etc. are looked at and then sound the warning when the throttle advances past X position.  We all miss items on the checklists.

I think the Skyview will do this with an audible annunciation.    Since the flaps and trim are manual in the mooney, Going to have to add a sensor.  https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/racpos12sensor.php?clickkey=26465

With sensors, I should be able to set a flap or trim overspeed set point.   I know there is one for flap overspeed which will prevent the dreaded "hmmm why am I going so slow"   Cause you left the flaps down dummy.

Hopefully I can record my own.   Something like "Trim Dummy, Trim Dummy"

We will see.

 

[gsxrpilot]

I like to tell myself that this is one of the benefits of owning and thus flying the same airplane all the time. I can feel the trim out of position within the first 500 ft of the takeoff roll. You know where the yoke is supposed to be at all times. And when it's not there naturally, you know what is wrong.

That reminds me... I need to make up a check list. I'm sure the DPE for my CPL check ride will expect me to use one. 

[Yetti]

1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

I like to tell myself that this is one of the benefits of owning and thus flying the same airplane all the time. I can feel the trim out of position within the first 500 ft of the takeoff roll. You know where the yoke is supposed to be at all times. And when it's not there naturally, you know what is wrong.

That reminds me... I need to make up a check list. I'm sure the DPE for my CPL check ride will expect me to use one. 

The previous pilot copied and laminated the pages from the PoH.   Still use it.   Technically you have a placard there on the center column that has it.     Checklist when I have not been flying much.   Flows when I have been flying.   

Interesting enough before getting on the runway, I do a moment of running everything in my brain which will result in one more check of the Trim position.

[aviatoreb]

Flows are great - but I have found that if I don't use check lists often, sometimes I flow-forget something right off what I should be forgetting.  Example - last summer I realized that the last several flights I had been forgetting to ground check the stall horn during walk around check list because I was holding the check list in my hand and spot reading it too quickly rather than check-pause-act reading it.  So there I was I had developed a temporary habit of not checking something that was clearly written on my check list. 

And what else might I miss systematically by habit if I get in the habit of spot reading instead of  check-pause-act reading - this is a human factors issue of complacency.

Edited January 3, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Flows are great - but I have found that if I don't use check lists often, sometimes I flow-forget something right off what I should be forgetting.  Example - last summer I realized that the last several flights I had been forgetting to ground check the stall horn during walk around check list because I was holding the check list in my hand and spot reading it too quickly rather than check-pause-act reading it.  So there I was I had developed a temporary habit of not checking something that was clearly written on my check list. 

And what else might I miss systematically by habit if I get in the habit of spot reading instead of  check-pause-act reading - this is a human factors issue of complacency.

I don't think you can do a walk around as a flow.    When I do flows, I point out with my finger each time everything I am checking.    For Example starting at the middle behind the seat.  Check Baggage hatch(yes I can reach it with yetti arms) -  Trim wheel. then Gear on floor, then flap indicator, trim indicator.  then to the right ELT switch, Then tach, then FP, MP.  Then circuit breakers.    Done.

[Marauder]

For me is it is a flow for everything. When I do a walk around, I pull up the checklist and verify I hit all of the killer items.

Same goes for the cockpit flow. I think flows by themselves can be a risk because if the flow gets interrupted, there is a chance something gets missed. The checklist that supports for a flow can be pretty simply. As an example, when I configure my plane for landing, I do the pre-landing flow followed up by the checklist BUMPS item.

As someone who does safety pilot flights, I get to see firsthand how even using a checklist can go sideways.


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[HXG]

On 1/1/2020 at 8:37 PM, aviatoreb said:

I have had my electric trim fail on go around - of all times.  Actually the trim switch on the yoke failed.  Anyway what that means is that you need to hold the proper yoke force - lots of forward pressure - while manually moving the trim wheel with the other hand.

Personally, I go right to the manual trim wheel on a go around or whenever quick big  trim changes are needed. Unlike the slower acting electric trim button, immediately turning the manual trim wheel allows for much quicker trim changes that may prevent a departure stall. 

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

For me is it is a flow for everything. When I do a walk around, I pull up the checklist and verify I hit all of the killer items.

Same goes for the cockpit flow. I think flows by themselves can be a risk because if the flow gets interrupted, there is a chance something gets missed. The checklist that supports for a flow can be pretty simply. As an example, when I configure my plane for landing, I do the pre-landing flow followed up by the checklist BUMPS item.

As someone who does safety pilot flights, I get to see firsthand how even using a checklist can go sideways.


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The rule is if the flow is interrupted.   Flow has to restart from beginning.

[gsxrpilot]

52 minutes ago, Yetti said:

The rule is if the flow is interrupted.   Flow has to restart from beginning.

That's why you keep the flow short ;-)

 

[mike_elliott]

Praise to Mr Hunnicutt.
Sincerely, Erik

Mr. Tom Hunnicutt and his lady, Jackie.
I have extended an invitation for them to come to the Mooney Summit VIII. I was honored tonight to have dinner with these amazing people.
Thanks again Tom for saving Mark Brandemuehl and allowing him and Jenny to have just a few more months.

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[KB4]

On 1/1/2020 at 11:45 AM, toto said:

Dunno. I've definitely *tried* to stall the plane with ESP enabled, and I failed

That was my understanding too.  On schedule for mine in spring.  Permitted to activate GFC500 at 800 ft.  So ESP protection may not be on before that, but I am not clear on that.  My understanding if the pilot tries to overpower the ESP instead of disengaging it, ESP will fight you opposite and pilot will loose. 

[bradp]

On 1/2/2020 at 10:30 PM, mike_elliott said:

While we are precluded by NDA from using the Mooney training program, we do follow the objectives in used Mooney transition training's

That there would be an NDA surrounding transition training gob-smacks of a penny wise pound poor mentality.  Why put an NDA on safety? 

Re retrofit sensor systems - probably coming.  That garmin autoland system will be able to be retrofit to existing Meridians / Malibu’s etc.  that means electronic sensing of flap and gear position.   We will be able to hear goose honks for takeoff config warnings And probably under norsee.  Not much extra expense and a potential safety benefit.  

[aviatoreb]

19 minutes ago, bradp said:

That there would be an NDA surrounding transition training gob-smacks of a penny wise pound poor mentality.  Why put an NDA on safety? 
 

When I read that same line that there was an NDA on Mooney's factory idea of safety transition training - turned my stomach.  I mean of all things to keep secret or proprietary that one is not one.

[mike_elliott]

It is a slippery slope for sure. Perhaps their Parts manuals and Maintenance manuals, as well as the MAPA PPP manuals should be in the public domain. But why stop there, lets have Sportys, Weatherspork, King schools also provide their products for free as they all enhance safety. 

If the FITS course were free, Mooney would be exposed to liability. I dont think Cessna provides their FITS courseware for free either. But it would be nice to have available for everyone.

 

[bradp]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

When I read that same line that there was an NDA on Mooney's factory idea of safety transition training - turned my stomach.  I mean of all things to keep secret or proprietary that one is not one.

Mooney marketing might respond “what me worry” and point to the roll cage.  That department certainly can’t seem to get anything else right ... I only hope I made that assessment prematurely and Mike will set me right. 

[aviatoreb]

31 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

It is a slippery slope for sure. Perhaps their Parts manuals and Maintenance manuals, as well as the MAPA PPP manuals should be in the public domain. But why stop there, lets have Sportys, Weatherspork, King schools also provide their products for free as they all enhance safety. 

If the FITS course were free, Mooney would be exposed to liability. I dont think Cessna provides their FITS courseware for free either. But it would be nice to have available for everyone.

 

I disagree with the comparison of the factory safety material as analogous to the King training materials.  We can all buy the King training materials for a modest price.  As it is, we can only get the factory training material with the purchase of a new $800k aircraft.  That is definitely the wealthy country club concept.  I would not blink or belly-ache if the factory were selling their safety materials directly for several hundred dollars.  It seems like it would be a wise practice as for no other reason than selfish motive - alive people are more likely future customers than dead people.  And anyway, mooney factory selling safety materials ala king schools for a modest profit is still a profit beyond not selling the materials.  Or if not selling the materials directly, perhaps empowering specific CFI's such as yourself to use the factory materials for hire, and again a fraction of that fee would be a premium that the factory would take for developing the materials.  The main thing is - I can buy Sportys, Weatherspork, King schools materials, and I have.  I cannot buy the Mooney materials for anything less than $800k (but then it comes with a nice new airplane).

[mike_elliott]

I disagree with the comparison of the factory safety material as analogous to the King training materials.  We can all buy the King training materials for a modest price.  As it is, we can only get the factory training material with the purchase of a new $800k aircraft.  That is definitely the wealthy country club concept.  I would not blink or belly-ache if the factory were selling their safety materials directly for several hundred dollars.  It seems like it would be a wise practice as for no other reason than selfish motive - alive people are more likely future customers than dead people.  And anyway, mooney factory selling safety materials ala king schools for a modest profit is still a profit beyond not selling the materials.  Or if not selling the materials directly, perhaps empowering specific CFI's such as yourself to use the factory materials for hire, and again a fraction of that fee would be a premium that the factory would take for developing the materials.  The main thing is - I can buy Sportys, Weatherspork, King schools materials, and I have.  I cannot buy the Mooney materials for anything less than $800k (but then it comes with a nice new airplane).

It's certainly won't hurt to ask Mooney if they could make this available as a for sale product. How many people would be interested? I suppose some kind of control to keep it from becoming public domain much like the for sale MAPA PPP manual has become would be an order, and getting clearance from Mooney's legal department would be a necessity also.

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[exM20K]

Beating a dead horse here - sorry.  Cirrus has the profound need to promulgate and deliver transition training to buyers of new and used planes.  all vintage of airframes were lawn-darting and burning up at a frightening rate prior to 2010 (?).  The training program has made tremendous progress in reducing the accident and fatal rate to at or below peer group rates.  No doubt this is expensive for them, but it saves lives, protects the company from litigation, and generally sends good "feelz" about the brand.

 

Buy a new or used cirrus, get transition training free.

https://cirrusaircraft.com/embark/

QUALIFYING FOR CIRRUS EMBARK

 

Cirrus Embark is offered complimentary to pre-owned Cirrus buyers. A short questionnaire is required as part of your enrollment into Cirrus Embark. This questionnaire is used by our Cirrus Flight Training Advisors to determine if you meet the simple qualifications below:

Must be the direct owner or designated pilot of a pre-owned Cirrus aircraft.

You must be the direct owner of the pre-owned Cirrus aircraft to qualify. Indirect ownership,
such as a flying club, does not qualify for the Embark program. Owners who are not pilots or
currently undergoing pilot training may designate one personal pilot for enrollment in the
program, provided they meet all other qualifications. Training must be conducted in the pre-
owned Cirrus aircraft qualifying for Cirrus Embark and the aircraft must be in legal, airworthy
condition.

One Cirrus Embark training per pre-owned Cirrus aircraft purchase.

For each purchase of a pre-owned Cirrus aircraft, only one direct owner or designated pilot may take advantage of the Cirrus Embark program.

Must apply within one month of purchase and complete the Cirrus Embark program within two months of enrollment.

Direct owners, or designated pilots, of pre-owned Cirrus aircraft must enroll into Cirrus Embark within thirty (30) days of aircraft delivery. Once enrolled into the program, the owner or designated pilot must complete the training within sixty (60) days.

Must be used to complete Cirrus Transition or Differences Training Course.

Cirrus Embark is designed for owners with little or no experience flying a Cirrus aircraft. Therefore, the training syllabus follows a strict lesson flow and is not meant to accomplish a flight review or instrument proficiency check.

At Cirrus Aircraft, training is at the forefront of how we transform safety in aviation. Great pilots are always learning and we look forward to being part of your Cirrus Life. Welcome to the Cirrus family.

[Davidv]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

It's certainly won't hurt to ask Mooney if they could make this available as a for sale product. How many people would be interested? I suppose some kind of control to keep it from becoming public domain much like the for sale MAPA PPP manual has become would be an order, and getting clearance from Mooney's legal department would be a necessity also.

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I don't mean to defend Mooney on this one, but it seems like a fair liability limitation issue for them.  If they released their full training materials that any CFI could access (say, someone who is more familiar with teaching in a 172) and there was an incident, the lawyers start pointing fingers at anyone and everyone.  If I purchase a new plane and receive the training through Mooney, they can at least provide some oversight on quality of instruction (from a legal perspective) and probably also have you release them from all liabilities resulting from the training.  I haven't bought a new Mooney so this is all just a guess...

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

It's certainly won't hurt to ask Mooney if they could make this available as a for sale product. How many people would be interested? I suppose some kind of control to keep it from becoming public domain much like the for sale MAPA PPP manual has become would be an order, and getting clearance from Mooney's legal department would be a necessity also.

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I would be interested.

But now reading DavidV's post I understand that point of view too.  

Its a bad image to keep the safety material seemingly secret but if they sell it then that limits the broader public exposure.  I would think if they don't want to sell us the materials directly, then maybe they would sell it to people like you Mike, like I said, releasing certain respected CFI's to offer officially sanctioned Mooney training.  That would be a better more friendly image than keeping it more secret.