I took my M20F to FL220 (naturally aspirated)

[INA201]

Nice PIREP!  That’s cool. I don’t have the guts to climb that high. 

So why do we need a turbo to fly in the Rockies!
 

[carusoam]

Bringing friends along may require the TN...

Best regards,

-a-

[McMooney]

this is cool,  think i'll give it a try in the E

[carusoam]

Let’s all remember where Class A starts, and know what altitude our individual ADSB out system is good to...

Good to have both a Plan A, and an equally strong plan B, for the O2 system... and O2 sensors for your fingers...

Then climb like crazy!

PP thoughts only, not a TC’d pilot or CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

  On 1/1/2020 at 8:07 PM, INA201 said:

Nice PIREP!  That’s cool. I don’t have the guts to climb that high. 

So why do we need a turbo to fly in the Rockies!
 

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You don't really. When I had my M20F I made IFR flights over the Rockies at 16000 MEA.

The turbo has more power up high so you go faster. In the high teens I can do 175-180 KTS true. In the NA M20F I would see 135 - 140 KTS that high. 

[carusoam]

Great pirep, Rich!

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

  On 1/1/2020 at 8:14 PM, McMooney said:

this is cool,  think i'll give it a try in the E

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I did this in my C several years ago, on a hot August afternoon in furthest WV. Climbed VFR with CFII and portable O2; we step-climbed in racetrack ovals along the Ohio River where it makes a large V at the WV-OH-KY border. Gave up at 15,000 msl . . . Wrote down conditions, don't recall power left, but I leveled off twice to accelerate and restart the climb. 

Googled how to calculate DA--when we stopped at 15,000 msl, the actual DA was 18,800. Not bad for 180 hp!

Record conditions on the ground and at the top of your climb, as well as things like MP, IAS, etc. You'll want to remember them . . . .

[FloridaMan]

I suspect the ram air of the LoPresti cowling made a significant difference up high. 

[SantosDumont]

Wow.  How were you getting 500fpm up there?  Over 10k and I get like 200fpm.

[EricJ]

  On 1/3/2020 at 7:55 PM, SantosDumont said:

Wow.  How were you getting 500fpm up there?  Over 10k and I get like 200fpm.

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Maybe you have the wrong engine?       Sorry, had to.       I took my J to 15,500 once, just to test my portable oxygen system and see what the airplane would do.   It was still climbing fine at 15,500, but my vernatherm was going bad and the oil was getting hot, so we went back down from there.

[ArtVandelay]

  On 1/3/2020 at 7:55 PM, SantosDumont said:

Wow.  How were you getting 500fpm up there?  Over 10k and I get like 200fpm.

I took my J to 16500 (DA ~18000) and was only getting 100 fpm at the end, turned out my engine had a deteriorating node so I wasn’t making rated HP. An overhaul may be in your future.


Tom

[FloridaMan]

  On 1/3/2020 at 7:55 PM, SantosDumont said:

Wow.  How were you getting 500fpm up there?  Over 10k and I get like 200fpm.

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Even on my old engine on the last long flight before overhaul at 2200 hours and with a spun bearing that I hadn't yet discovered I was getting 500fpm in my M20F through 15,000 and this was full fuel, 350lbs of passengers and bags. I run 2700 all the way to the top of my climb and cruise at high RPM at altitude. I recommend getting your engine checked. You may have something very wrong with it, and not everything that could cause you to see such poor performance could be expensive. Your tach could be reading high (my Rocket's tach read 100rpm high). Your mags could be timed incorrectly, have an intake restriction, or you could be using the wrong speeds. For my M20F, published Vy is 113mph - 1mph per 1000ft. I have the LoPresti cowl and with the ram air open I was seeing 17 inches through 15,000; I would expect 15 - 16 inches without the ram air. 

Here's a video:

 

[M20F]

  On 1/7/2020 at 7:02 PM, FloridaMan said:

I was getting 500fpm in my M20F through 15,000 and this was full fuel, 350lbs of passengers and bags. 

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You have the best M20F ever. 
 

 

[ArtVandelay]

  On 1/7/2020 at 7:02 PM, FloridaMan said:

Even on my old engine on the last long flight before overhaul at 2200 hours and with a spun bearing that I hadn't yet discovered I was getting 500fpm in my M20F through 15,000 and this was full fuel, 350lbs of passengers and bags. I run 2700 all the way to the top of my climb and cruise at high RPM at altitude. I recommend getting your engine checked. You may have something very wrong with it, and not everything that could cause you to see such poor performance could be expensive. Your tach could be reading high (my Rocket's tach read 100rpm high). Your mags could be timed incorrectly, have an intake restriction, or you could be using the wrong speeds. For my M20F, published Vy is 113mph - 1mph per 1000ft. I have the LoPresti cowl and with the ram air open I was seeing 17 inches through 15,000; I would expect 15 - 16 inches without the ram air. 

Here's a video:

 

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Interesting that the attitude indicator is showing level flight, riding an updraft?

[gsxrpilot]

  On 1/1/2020 at 8:07 PM, INA201 said:

Nice PIREP!  That’s cool. I don’t have the guts to climb that high. 

So why do we need a turbo to fly in the Rockies!
 

Expand  

The turbo just gets you there quicker and goes faster once you're there. But truthfully you are correct. There is no absolute requirement for the turbo in the Rockies. I crossed them a couple of times in my M20C just fine.

But with a turbo... take a look at KBJC to KSBS on a sectional. I was able to depart runway 30R out of KBJC and flew runway heading all the way to KSBS. No turns. That takes a turbo or a turbine.

I'll just throw out the invitation. If anyone wants to experience flight in the rare air of the mid-flight levels in a Mooney, come to Denver. We'll go for a ride up as high as FL280 or maybe FL300. You can see TAS above 200 knots and IAS below 120 knots at the same time. 

The invitation is open to any Mooney pilot.

[Flash]

  On 1/8/2020 at 3:15 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I'll just throw out the invitation. If anyone wants to experience flight in the rare air of the mid-flight levels in a Mooney, come to Denver. We'll go for a ride up as high as FL280 or maybe FL300. You can see TAS above 200 knots and IAS below 120 knots at the same time. 

The invitation is open to any Mooney pilot.

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Paul,

I'll be happy to take you up on that some day in the not-too-distant future. 

[ArtVandelay]

  On 1/8/2020 at 3:15 AM, gsxrpilot said:

The turbo just gets you there quicker and goes faster once you're there. But truthfully you are correct. There is no absolute requirement for the turbo in the Rockies. I crossed them a couple of times in my M20C just fine.

But with a turbo... take a look at KBJC to KSBS on a sectional. I was able to depart runway 30R out of KBJC and flew runway heading all the way to KSBS. No turns. That takes a turbo or a turbine.

I'll just throw out the invitation. If anyone wants to experience flight in the rare air of the mid-flight levels in a Mooney, come to Denver. We'll go for a ride up as high as FL280 or maybe FL300. You can see TAS above 200 knots and IAS below 120 knots at the same time. 

The invitation is open to any Mooney pilot.

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RVSM starts at FL280, both pilot and plane must be certified, the 252 isn’t?

Ive been told even on O2, flying in the flight levels is tough on the body.if done for extended periods. 

[FloridaMan]

  On 1/8/2020 at 1:28 AM, ArtVandelay said:

Interesting that the attitude indicator is showing level flight, riding an updraft?

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Nope. The attitude indicator in that plane is a little weird. Level flight is when the horizon is on the top of the little circle in the middle. That's pitched up a few degrees. On cold days, it'll cruise in the yellow at 5000ft. Here in Florida, at 1000ft I can push towards Vne in level flight. 

[gsxrpilot]

  On 1/8/2020 at 8:57 AM, ArtVandelay said:

RVSM starts at FL280, both pilot and plane must be certified, the 252 isn’t?

Ive been told even on O2, flying in the flight levels is tough on the body.if done for extended periods. 

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RVSM starts at FL290. I've never been above FL260 but the 252 is certified to FL280.

[SantosDumont]

  On 1/3/2020 at 8:50 PM, EricJ said:

Maybe you have the wrong engine?       Sorry, had to.       I took my J to 15,500 once, just to test my portable oxygen system and see what the airplane would do.   It was still climbing fine at 15,500, but my vernatherm was going bad and the oil was getting hot, so we went back down from there.

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TBH I actually haven't had a reason to go over 11k in a long time.  Last time I climbed to 13.5 was probably a year ago, my CHTs started going over 400, but I was climbing hard to get through a hole and on top of a broken layer.  Since then I got overhauled mags, new plugs, and a overhauled fuel pump.  The shop also said that the mag timing was off by 4 degrees on one of the mags...  lesson learned about shade tree mechanics.  I should try that climb again on a nice cold day.

[Stephen]

  On 1/1/2020 at 8:14 PM, McMooney said:

this is cool,  think i'll give it a try in the E

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Just make sure your O2 and pulse-ox monitoring strategy, and backup, are tested and good to go!

 

[FloridaMan]

  On 1/8/2020 at 4:25 PM, SantosDumont said:

TBH I actually haven't had a reason to go over 11k in a long time.  Last time I climbed to 13.5 was probably a year ago, my CHTs started going over 400, but I was climbing hard to get through a hole and on top of a broken layer.  Since then I got overhauled mags, new plugs, and a overhauled fuel pump.  The shop also said that the mag timing was off by 4 degrees on one of the mags...  lesson learned about shade tree mechanics.  I should try that climb again on a nice cold day.

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Don't make the mistake of thinking that a Mooney Service Center will do you any better. 

[Eight8Victor]

  On 1/9/2020 at 10:22 AM, FloridaMan said:

Don't make the mistake of thinking that a Mooney Service Center will do you any better. 

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+1. I'm much more comfortable having my seasoned mechanic working on my plane in my hangar with me. 

[kpaul]

  On 1/8/2020 at 8:57 AM, ArtVandelay said:

RVSM starts at FL280, both pilot and plane must be certified, the 252 isn’t?

Ive been told even on O2, flying in the flight levels is tough on the body.if done for extended periods. 

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RVSM starts at FL290.  You can fly in RVSM airspace while not meeting the requirements.  Your request with ATC will always be followed with "non-RVSM"  If you are approved into those altitudes great, ATC can always descend you back down if the airspace is too congested. ATC has to give 2000' of separation to non-RVSM aircraft vs the 1000' between RVSM aircraft.  I fly a Beech 400 that is certified to FL410, however it is non-RVSM.  I have been in RVSM airspace with it.

[SantosDumont]

  On 1/9/2020 at 10:22 AM, FloridaMan said:

Don't make the mistake of thinking that a Mooney Service Center will do you any better. 

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Yeah I’m ready to be done with using random mechanics. Fedex is bringing my RV-14 kit tomorrow.  Then I will only have myself to blame. 
 

Climbed to 15k on the way home today just to try it. Climbed at 120IAS / 500fpm until about 12k, then I had to pitch up to maintain 500fpm.